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Post by hibernicus on Oct 12, 2011 11:31:21 GMT
Liturgical changes made by the Patriarch of Constantinople would hardly affect Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, or non-Chalcedonian churches (including those subsequently reconciled with Rome). The liturgy cannot be reduced to the Canon alone. I might add that Fortescue, partly because he identified so strongly with the Eastern-rite Catholics, tends to be contemptuous in his references to the Orthodox. He also has a tendency to emphasise as much as possible instances of Papal opposition to latinisation in the Eastern Rites, in order to counter those in his own day who maintained that such latinisation was desirable for its own sake, as part of the ultramontane insistence on uniformity. (The development of that particular trend is very well illustrated in the new book of essays on Cardinal Cullen, which quotes two letters written by him at different stages in his career. Writing to a relative when he was a young priest in Rome, Cullen remarks that seeing Eastern Rite liturgies celebrated gives a real sense of the universality of the Church; writing from Rome during the Vatican Council, he mentions some disputes between the Vatican and some of the Eastern Rites and remarks that if the latter were to go into schism it would be no great loss, since they are no more numerous than a large parish in Dublin (i.e. 20-30,000)).
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 19, 2011 21:00:33 GMT
Some stand-up comedy from the Association of Catholic Priests blog. When a priest-commentator denounces Pope Benedict for referring to the Biblical imagery of Heaven as a banquet, Soline Humbert (alias Vatinel) the well-known campaigner for women priests, chimes in: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/10/pope-benedict-on-the-year-of-faith/Soline Humbert October 18th, 2011 at 1:32 pm @fr.S ” The poor who don’t have ready access to bread -let alone the Eucharist-must have been so impressed. I wasn’t.” Nor am I impressed by the €10 ticket charge (for each woman,man and child)to participate in the Eucharistic Congress Mass in Croke Park next June Is that the price of Communion with God and each other (the theme of the Congress)? END OF EXTRACT But what, pray tell, is the very next post on the blog? www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/10/irish-theological-association-day-on-the-new-missal/The Irish Theological Association is putting on a day on Saturday, November 26th in All Hallows College on the New Missal. The Day is entitled: Lost in Translation; Issues with the New Missal. The speakers are Canon Alan Griffith, Eugene Duffy and Thomas Whelan. Time: 10.AM TO 4.OOPM. An invitation has come to members of the ACP to attend. For non-members of the ITA the cost is €45; Members €30. END OF EXTRACT Does that include lunch, and will Soline Vatinel turn up to picket it?
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 19, 2011 21:12:17 GMT
This is the post to which Soline Vatinel is responding, BTW - it's the first comment www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/10/pope-benedict-on-the-year-of-faith/Fr S October 18th, 2011 at 12:26 pm If the Synod of Bishops is as successful as the 2005 Synod, (its remit was to find ways of making the Eucharist more readily available to the poor), we needn’t get over excited. They refused to discuss the permanent diaconate, Eucharistic Ministers, a married clergy and, God forbid, human beings lacking male genitalia becoming priests. They voted instead for the status quo but suggested that it might be an idea to re-open Junior Seminaries. Details can be found in The Tablet from the following week. You’ll also find a copy of the menu, a veritable and sumptious feast. And Benedict’s speech on that occasion, “It was not without intention that Jesus chose the imagery of a banquet as presaging Heaven…” The poor who dont have ready access to bread – let alone the Eucharist – must have been so impressed. I wasnt. END What a truly apostolic mind - so like the apostle who said "This could have been sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor" (Mark 14:5). Indeed Fr S is a worthy successor of that apostle. I notice Philip Jenkins remarks that present-day Third World Christians feel with particular force the Gospel imagery of the heavenly banquet and Jesus as the food of life precisely BECAUSE they know what hunger is. Objecting to the image of heavenly food in principle strikes me as very characteristic of liberal theology - the hungry sheep look up and are not fed, - worse still, they are subjected to lectures on how spiritual starvation is a particularly happy and desirable state which must not be disturbed by gross materialistic imagery about food, whose existence has been disproved once and for all by Hans Kung.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 1, 2011 21:16:39 GMT
A bitter and despairing rant from a Cloyne priest denouncing the "additions made to the Gospel over the centuries by elderly celibates", the system for appointing bishops, the refusal to ordain women, abolish celibacy etc. He does have a sense of how grave the situation of the Irish Church is, despite the futility and heterodoxy of his proposed "solutions" - and he also sees more clearly than its media cheerleaders that the ACP emperor is very skimpily clad: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/11/reflection-on-the-agm-and-the-way-forward-joe-mcguane-cloyne/EXTRACT At present, membership seems to be around maybe 12% of total. This is quite small, small enough to be called a rump or even a disaffected rump. Like our baptisms, at least two thirds I fear are just paper members. If push ever comes to shove, I believe two thirds would melt away. The attendees at our morning meeting made up maybe 2% or 3%. Over the next year I hope a determined effort will be made to increase membership. To do that, I think a few little sacrifices will have to be made. The best is sometimes the enemy of the good. Sometimes it is best to settle for 80% or so rather than aim for 100% and perhaps end with nothing. We need to get at least a third of the priests on board to be substantial and to merit notice. Life is not perfect and we need to broaden a little and even dilute a tiny bit in order to get three quarters of a loaf. As it is the majority view among priests sees the ACP as radical and extreme, the word “soreheads” was mentioned at our meeting. It was also mentioned that there was just one priest member from one populous diocese, if I heard correctly... We should have the expertise to produce an attractive and well-worded brochure. It should be broad in nature and not too many specifics. Particular hobbyhorses are best excluded. We must not become a one trick pony. Something along the general lines of bringing Vatican 11 on stream. A lot of thought would be needed for good wording. This brochure along with membership form might be given individually to all priests saying that we miss them and are anxious to hear what they have to say. It might be either handed to them at diocesan gatherings or failing that posted. If we become totally opposed to contrary views and refuse to listen we will wither. First get them in and then apply gentle persuasion. As it is, the bishops can ignore us, we are too small. Our membership is top heavy with 50 to 70 year olds, too many of us inching on to 70. We badly need younger members. Like it or nor they are the only future. Get them in and then try to influence them if we don’t like their colours. One person mentioned having someone on the “executive” who would have the ear and confidence of the bishops. I would be very opposed to that. There is a danger that this person would stymie us. When the bishops offer us three or four places at their Maynooth meetings, particularly when they discuss pastoral items ( they have little or no expertise on these matters) then we can perhaps reconsider... END OF EXTRACT
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 4, 2011 19:16:12 GMT
The Association of Catholic Priests is trying to organise an "Assembly of the Irish Church" in a Dublin venue on 1 May of next year, and to recruit sympathetic laity and clerics to take part. I suspect conservative views will not be welcome and the attendees will present themselves as representing the whole "Irish Church" and not merely a faction. An e-mail address is provided in the post linked below; if any of you wish to get in touch with the ACP to suggest that the Assembly should discuss such matters as the need for the rediscovery of authentic liturgical traditions, crackdowns on doctrinal heterodoxy, more study of Aquinas and of the writings of the last two Popes, a return to traditional habits and community life for religious orders, etc, feel free to do so and see how receptive their proposed "Assembly" will be to such viewpoints. Anyone else suspect this "Assembly" is meant to counterweigh the Eucharistic Congress? www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/11/assembly-of-the-irish-church/
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Post by losleandros on Nov 6, 2011 20:55:54 GMT
A slight detour. The first reading in today's Mass concerns " wisdom " & repeatedly uses the feminine in referring to this virtue. Presumably the members of the ACP refused to include it in their Mass because of it's " sexist " nature !.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 19, 2011 18:57:10 GMT
Oddly enough, when I was at St Kevin's the Sunday before last I noticed that the choir sang "personibus bonae voluntatis" instead of "hominibus ..." How were they allowed to do this?
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 19, 2011 20:27:27 GMT
Here are some of the opinions put forward at a regional ACP meeting in Claremorris: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/11/report-on-region-acp-meeting-in-claremorris/EXTRACT ...Opinions expressed held; that the ordination of married men could be done if training was provided; there are already leaders in communities who could easily take on the role with training; the distinctions of ‘laity’ and ‘clerical’ need to be abolished and we should follow the union of ministries outlined by St. Paul;[THIS IS A CLASSIC PROTESTANT VIEW- QUITE INCOMPATIBLE WITH CATHOLICISM] priests who have left the ministry to marry should be invited back to ministry, if they wish; the issue of the ordination of women should be included in discussions. Are we being truthful if we don’t discuss it for merely strategic reasons so as not to alienate some?HOW INTERESTING We need to take a long term view with regard to the ordination of married men chosen from communities and be content with ‘baby steps’ at the moment. We are facing the greatest crisis in the history of the church in Ireland, we don’t need talking shops, we need action. Communities that have no priest are being targeted by other churches who see an opportunity to provide a sense of belonging to people.I FAIL TO SEE HOW ANYONE WHO HOLDS THE VIEWS EXPRESSED IN THIS POST CAN OBJECT TO EVANGELICALS PROSELYTISING CATHOLICS, UNLESS IT IS BECAUSE THEY THINK THE EVANGELICALS RETAIN TOO MUCH OF HISTORIC CHRISTIANITY AS DISTINCT FROM WORSHIPPING THEMSELVES UNDER THE NAME "COMMUNITY" We need to develop a theology of priesthood for the 21st century. The discussion then branched into other areas, the exclusion of those who have divorced from any type of church service for a second union was mentioned as another way in which we are failing people and excluding them... HOW REMISS OF JOHN THE BAPTIST. END OF EXTRACT I strongly suspect from this and some similar posts that what they mean by "a theology of priesthood for the 21st century" is the view that the Mass is simply a communal celebration and the priest is simply the person chosen by "the community" to preside, with no special sacramental powers or apostolic succession. Their advocacy of an end to celibacy does not stand alone - it is part of a wider desire to do away with any distinction between the priestly and lay states - hence the suggestion to ordain simplex priests who would train on the job rather than attending seminaries and who would not be differentiated from the "community". Note that while these views do not presumably reflect those of all ACP members, they think them sufficiently worthy of attention to reproduce them on their website.
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Post by loughcrew on Nov 21, 2011 12:45:47 GMT
Without the help of the ACP would Father Kevin Reynolds ever have had his name cleared in the legal case taken against RTE? I do feel bad about criticising them now.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 21, 2011 13:57:31 GMT
Praise them when they do right and criticise them when they do wrong. They were certainly right about Fr Reynolds - the bishops are so scared of being accused of cover-up that they are now treating accusation as equivalent to guilt and throwing accused priests overboard immediately. One scary feature of the case BTW is that Fr Reynolds was told by some people he approached that he shouldn't fight because RTE were just too powerful and would wear him down - exactly the position many abuse victims used to find themselves in when dealing with the church authorities.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 23, 2011 13:11:09 GMT
An interesting reply to the claim that Vatican II somehow mandated the abolition of the distinction between priests and laity - by reference to the actual documents www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=887EXTRACT If you look at today’s report of new dissidence in Austria, you’ll see yet another example of the Modernist abuse of the Second Vatican Council. Hans Peter Hurka, the leader of the We Are Church movement there, claims his group will conduct liturgical ceremonies in which lay persons act as priests. He understands that this violates current Church law, but claims it is in accordance with the teachings of Vatican II. Oh, really? In several very explicit documents, Vatican II carefully delineated the most complete magisterial understanding in history of the role of bishops, of priests, and of the laity in the Church. These documents include in the first place the Council’s central text, often described as the very key to the Council, namely Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church). In addition there are three smaller and more particular decrees: Christus Dominus (Decree Concerning the Pastoral Office of Bishops in the Church), Presbyterorum Ordinis (Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests), and Apostolicam Actuositatem (Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity). Now nowhere in any of these documents will you find any confusion of the roles of bishops, priests and laity. Nor will you find any such confusion in Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium. With respect to the claims of the We Are Church movement, we would surely expect to find something in this document through which the Council fathers outlined the renewal of the liturgy, of which they stated: “the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the fount from which all her power flows” (10). But instead, it was precisely here that the Council fathers called particular attention to the necessity of the priest: To accomplish so great a work [i.e., the work of salvation] Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the Sacrifice of the Mass not only in the person of his minister, “the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross,” but especially in the Eucharistic species. (7) Note those words: “the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross.” How sad then that it has always been a hallmark of Modernism to seek to obliterate the distinction of roles among the various members of the Body of Christ! This, no doubt, puts Modernists in tune with the religious impulses of a democratic age, impulses they hope to rule through their own magisterium of academic expertise. In any case, we are too familiar with the long effort to push the laity into formal liturgical roles, as if this is normal to their state in life, and to reduce priests and bishops to the role of “presiders”, lest an authentic sacramental authority should hold sway. Yet there is no warrant for this effort anywhere in the Council documents. The Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity makes it quite clear that the special province of the laity in the Lord’s work of evangelization and sanctification is “the penetrating and perfecting of the temporal order through the spirit of the Gospel” END OF EXTRACT I have posted this item on this thread because the ACP have established links to the Austrian group and frequently cite them as kindred spirits. BTW the CATHOLIC WORLD REPORT stated that one of the principles of the Austrian group was that members would say Mass only once daily (rather than the maximum three permitted - it is common practice in Austria for priests to say Mass in more than one parish on Sundays, given the priest shortage). I remember being slightly puzzled at this, given the same group's complaints that current Church policy involves "withdrawing the Eucharist from the people" since there are not enough priests, but when I looked at the report of the ACP Claremorris meeting the penny dropped. The Austrians object to priests saying Mass in more than one parish because they have a basically congregationalist theology whereby the priest is "representative of the community" and they don't like the same priest saying Mass in more than one parish because this implies the sacramental character of his priesthood is independent of the particular "community" he serves. Keep an eye out for this particular Trojan Horse in discussions of our own vocations crisis.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 24, 2011 18:36:15 GMT
An ACP meeting of "priests from the southern dioceses" (doesn't say which ones - do they mean the Province of Cashel?) Only 35 attended. www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/11/report-on-acp-meeting-charleville-nov-23rd/EXTRACTS 2. Crisis in ministry was then addressed. In the absence of a priest to celebrate Mass, the inability of the local community to have a Eucharistic Service THAT'S MASS, TO YOU was highlighted. Who is preparing for this as we are a dying breed and are we afraid to look at the future? CODE FOR CONGREGATIONALISM AND PERHAPS LAY CELEBRATION? The need to highlight for people non church ceremonies of birth, marriage, death was clearly stated for we are dealing with much non-practice and apathy. The importance of the Sacraments of initiation was stated and the question asked “why fetch water with a leaking bucket?” The sense of belonging is for those who are active in the community. A question to ask every household:- “Do you wish to be associated with the Liturgical, praying and worshipping life of your parish?” With those that answer you have a basis for a living Community. A REAL PROBLEM AND I SUSPECT A BAD ANSWER - TREATING THE COMMUNITY AS AN END IN ITSELF RATHER THAN ORDERED TOWARDS GOD 3. TheEucharistic Congress was seen as something that the Association had no strong opinion on, and that maybe nothing should be said. INDEED 4. TheAssociation sent out feelers as to a National Assembly. A lot of lay groups want to be involved WHICH ONES? LET ME GUESS - AND NO TRADS NEED APPLY? and May 1st next year is the suggested date. Local Assemblies are also needed TO WEED OUT ANYONE WHO DISAGREES BEFORE THEY GET TO THE MAIN GIG and conversation on all topics at local and national level is necessary. END OF EXTRACT
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 30, 2011 19:05:28 GMT
A Flemish blogger and RORATE CAELI discuss a group (including some 200 priests) who have produced a manifesto in solidarity with the ACP and its Austrian equivalent A few caveats: (1) I dissociate myself from those RORATE comboxers who maintain that priestly celibacy is unquestionably the Apostolic practice (it may be; we don't know for sure) and that clerical marriage as practised in the Eastern Churches (they don't distinguish between the Eastern Rites in communion with Rome and the separated churches) is inherently schismatic and unacceptable. This would imply that the Church has been in very serious error for centuries in allowing the Eastern Rites to ordain married men, and that the easterners should now be forced to accept the Latin discipline, and that the standard view that celibacy reflects church discipline rather than divine law is erroneous - in other words, they are saying the church has been in major error for centuries. (2) The commenters note that the statement is (deliberately) ambiguous about whether it is advocating lay presidency at a service involving pre-consecrated hosts where a priest cannot be present (which would be allowable though problematic) or actual celebration of MAss by laypeople (i.e. rejection of the Church's theology of priesthood and ordination). There is a third possibility which some of the ACP members appear to favour - that married people should be ordained as simplex priests (i.e. not attending seminaries) and undergo some sort of formation "in the community" - this would pose serious practical problems but is not actually heretical. incaelo.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/the-weak-case-of-the-disobedient-priests/rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/11/rebellion-in-flanders.html#moreSOME NOTABLE COMMENTS Carlos Antonio Palad said... Celibacy is not the only point of contention in this manifesto. The real problem is that it calls for a blurring of the lines between laity and clergy, such that laypeople (including married ones and women) should be allowed to lead parishes and preside over Sunday services (including what these heretics call "service of Word and Communion", which is their term for the Mass). Communion for "remarried" divorcees is also advocated. 28 November, 2011 19:45 Anil Wang said... Pot Stirrer, you are correct about married priests but this misses several important facts: (1) Married priesthood is often cited as the solution to the sexual abuse crisis. This is not only false, it would actually aggravate it (witness the number within Protestantism) unless the root causes are taken care of. (2) Clergy have never been allowed to marry after ordination, even in the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. These call to actions do not want this restriction. (3) Divorced men have never been allowed to become priests, even in the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. These call to actions do not want this restriction. (4) Even in the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, celibacy is the preferred state, and in the Eastern Orthodox bishops must be celibate. These call to actions deny this. (5) Married men can be denied the priesthood because of their wives in the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. These call to actions do not want this. (6) If married priesthood were the only requirement, they would ask for a mass transfer to the Eastern Catholic Church. This is never hinted at.BUT WOULD THE EASTERN RITES ACCEPT THEM? In short, there is nothing to be gained by changing the status quo on celibate priesthood in the Latin Rite. 28 November, 2011 14:23 Peter said... I hope this catches on in Ireland. If a petition were signed, one would then have a reliable list of priests to avoid -- and the new nuncio would have a list of priests to not take seriously, and certainly not to be considered for vacant dioceses. 28 November, 2011 12:29
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 5, 2011 21:00:58 GMT
And as sure as night follows day, the ACP website picks up on the Belgian group discussed in the last post. They report it under the heading "Belgian Catholics call for Reform" without noting that some of the proposed "reforms" amount to abandoning Catholicism for liberal Protestantism of a very "low church" type. www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/12/belgian-catholics-call-for-reform/
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2011 18:15:49 GMT
If they are so worried about the dearth of clergy why are they not using their pulpit to speak about how men can become deacons? Deacons can baptise, preside over funerals, preach at the pulpit, I think they can anoint the sick but not give the Last Rites (happy to be corrected there). Obviously they can neither say Mass nor hear confessions. I am intrigued by them. What is their agenda, really now? I mean are they daft enough to think their goals would help the church or are they so ashamed by the abuse or dissatisfied with their choice in life that they are trying to disassociate from the Church? I know what they say they want but how do fellow posters read them?
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