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Post by hibernicus on Jul 16, 2019 21:45:42 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jul 17, 2019 8:39:55 GMT
Jordan Peterson says he knows he is speaking to an ideologue, rather than having a meaningful conversation, when nothing that person says surprises you. It applies to the ACP.
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 18, 2019 21:50:39 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 7, 2019 20:46:38 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 19, 2019 22:53:54 GMT
Fr BRendan Hoban rants and raves in the current issue of STUDIES. Noteworthy features include his insistence that tolerating "conservative" views and practices amounts to "mollycoddling" those who are "puerile" and "in denial", and his complaint about the teaching that ordination makes a priest "ontologically different", omitting the point that this also involves greater responsibilities and potentially greater dangers. A strong reminder of the mindset of those who want tolerance for their own nostrums and intolerance for anyone who disagrees with them. www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2019/08/another-beginning/
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 21, 2019 20:49:07 GMT
I get the distinct impression that some of the loudest mouths on the ACP website dislike the idea of a sacramental priesthood because they see it as an undue burden, not on the laity but on the priest (i.e. themselves).
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Post by hibernicus on May 2, 2020 19:26:00 GMT
The ACP is keeping up the bad work: Fr Seamus Ahearne, OSA, responds to watching streamed Masses with the thought that the wreckovation of church sanctuaries did not go far enough. All those "ornate" altars must go, with no exceptions. He considers it particularly outrageous that sanctuaries should be decorated with statues of angels. The fact that these statues are meant as reminders of the presence of the angels around the Holy of Holies, as described in those obsolete volumes the Old and New Testaments, and as models for reverent prayer cuts no ice with Fr Ahearne. Every angel - of the better sort - must go! www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/05/wrestling-with-god-an-angel-or-life-itself/EXTRACT The anomaly of a virtual Mass still disturbs me. I deeply appreciate the efforts made by so many. I have become fickle. I wander. I alight on a time and check how it seems. Some music is magnetic and gnaws at the heart. The Voice helps. The effort to link the moment and the Word. If it feels alive; I can stay. Now I did have a problem last week with the gaudy picture of the Divine Mercy. I may have been too strong on that one. But it did immediately put me off. However there is more. I shouldn’t be so picky. The Virtual Mass is an Invitation into the life of a Community. It is hospitable. I should be gracious and respectful. But the Sanctuary (of those churches) speaks aggressively. I look around. The contradictions of many Sanctuaries attacks my senses. The Re-Ordering that happened some fifty years ago shouts and sometimes even screams. There was the compromise effort. It wasn’t a re-ordering; it was a disordering. The old was kept. The new was added. It doesn’t work. The overly decorative (old) altar retained, offset by the new minimalist new Table, doesn’t work. The parade of statues in the Sanctuary and even flying angels, takes from the Centre of Celebration. The utter clutter is confusing. Surely it is now time to get this right. We can’t half do things. I am unfair but as a Liturgical Design Expert (which I am not) many of these Sanctuaries hurt my sensitivities. I am a disgraceful guest to a Community. (Wrestle with my immediate reactions). END OF EXTRACT On a post criticising some traditionalist denunciations of a priest in Ballyhaunis for allowing Moslem imams to join him in prayer in church (for the record, my own view is (a) I think a lot of trads overdo denunciations of Muslims, who should in general - with obvious exceptions - be shown some respect -(b) I think joining in prayer was a good idea but it shouldn't have been done in the church. In the combox we see that hardy perennial, Fr Joseph O'Leary, defending interfaith relations with Muslims. His tolerance of difference in worship only goes so far, however: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/04/seeds-of-peace-interfaith-prayer/EXTRACT FROM COMBOX - COMMENT 7: Joe O'Leary April 24th, 2020 at 3:36 pm Delighted to hear the Vatican is doing a survey of the pastoral fall-out of the restored Tridentine (1962) rite. My advice is: DUMP IT FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE! And please, please would the pope and bishops do some radical reflection on the mess they have made of the Eucharist all round? We should have a rich and nourishing liturgical culture rather than the tawdry, paltry routines that are bereft of any theological meditation. The utterly horrible new English “translation” is the epitome of this. Please study what other churches are doing right and humby learn from them. END OF EXTRACT
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Post by assisi on May 3, 2020 20:44:55 GMT
The ACP is keeping up the bad work: Fr Seamus Ahearne, OSA, responds to watching streamed Masses with the thought that the wreckovation of church sanctuaries did not go far enough. All those "ornate" altars must go, with no exceptions. He considers it particularly outrageous that sanctuaries should be decorated with statues of angels. The fact that these statues are meant as reminders of the presence of the angels around the Holy of Holies, as described in those obsolete volumes the Old and New Testaments, and as models for reverent prayer cuts no ice with Fr Ahearne. Every angel - of the better sort - must go! www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/05/wrestling-with-god-an-angel-or-life-itself/EXTRACT The anomaly of a virtual Mass still disturbs me. I deeply appreciate the efforts made by so many. I have become fickle. I wander. I alight on a time and check how it seems. Some music is magnetic and gnaws at the heart. The Voice helps. The effort to link the moment and the Word. If it feels alive; I can stay. Now I did have a problem last week with the gaudy picture of the Divine Mercy. I may have been too strong on that one. But it did immediately put me off. However there is more. I shouldn’t be so picky. The Virtual Mass is an Invitation into the life of a Community. It is hospitable. I should be gracious and respectful. But the Sanctuary (of those churches) speaks aggressively. I look around. The contradictions of many Sanctuaries attacks my senses. The Re-Ordering that happened some fifty years ago shouts and sometimes even screams. There was the compromise effort. It wasn’t a re-ordering; it was a disordering. The old was kept. The new was added. It doesn’t work. The overly decorative (old) altar retained, offset by the new minimalist new Table, doesn’t work. The parade of statues in the Sanctuary and even flying angels, takes from the Centre of Celebration. The utter clutter is confusing. Surely it is now time to get this right. We can’t half do things. I am unfair but as a Liturgical Design Expert (which I am not) many of these Sanctuaries hurt my sensitivities. I am a disgraceful guest to a Community. (Wrestle with my immediate reactions). END OF EXTRACT On a post criticising some traditionalist denunciations of a priest in Ballyhaunis for allowing Moslem imams to join him in prayer in church (for the record, my own view is (a) I think a lot of trads overdo denunciations of Muslims, who should in general - with obvious exceptions - be shown some respect -(b) I think joining in prayer was a good idea but it shouldn't have been done in the church. In the combox we see that hardy perennial, Fr Joseph O'Leary, defending interfaith relations with Muslims. His tolerance of difference in worship only goes so far, however: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/04/seeds-of-peace-interfaith-prayer/EXTRACT FROM COMBOX - COMMENT 7: Joe O'Leary April 24th, 2020 at 3:36 pm Delighted to hear the Vatican is doing a survey of the pastoral fall-out of the restored Tridentine (1962) rite. My advice is: DUMP IT FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE! And please, please would the pope and bishops do some radical reflection on the mess they have made of the Eucharist all round? We should have a rich and nourishing liturgical culture rather than the tawdry, paltry routines that are bereft of any theological meditation. The utterly horrible new English “translation” is the epitome of this. Please study what other churches are doing right and humby learn from them. END OF EXTRACT The key phrase I picked up was 'But the Sanctuary (of those churches) speaks aggressively'. Which might be more truly translated as 'the sanctuary is too Catholic'. As for the Fr. Joseph O'Leary character I think it must be the same person who keeps turning up on Catholic and Conservative websites I dip into, always dominating the discussion with liberal takes on everything.
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Post by hibernicus on May 5, 2020 0:30:53 GMT
The basic idea is that the sanctuary should be entirely bare so that nothing (e.g. the Tabernacle) distracts from the actual moment of performance. It's based on assumption that transcendence (anything pointing towards eternity) must not be tolerated as it distracts from the participation of the celebrant/congregation here and now, in the present moment, as opposed to the view that the liturgy should lift us out of time to glimpse eternity (the Temple worship as image of Heaven in the OT, the heavenly liturgy in the Apocalypse). Joseph Shaw of the England & Wales Latin Mass Society discusses this quite regularly on his blog. Fr Ahearne should logically demand that the Sistine Chapel be not merely whitewashed (which might allow some future reactionary to restore it) but replastered altogether. He reminds me of someone: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_da_Volterra It is indeed the same Fr Joseph O'Leary. As I said, a hardy perennial.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 12, 2020 9:00:58 GMT
It really is the same names again and again on the ACP website and they are well able to sneer at the traditional/conservative/orthodox efforts without being able to reflect on the sorry mess around them.
With Father Séamus Ahearne, the Irish and Anglo-Scottish provinces of the Order of St Augustine are dying on their feet. And that's probably an understatement given their age profile.
I would like to see what sort of apostolate Fr Joseph O'Leary has in Japan.
Father Brendan Hoban is likewise blinkered in north Mayo - I wonder what audience he is pitching to. Whatever dreams were cultivated in Maynooth in the late 60s and early 70s have not materialised.
These are those who lecture about the Signs of the Times, but they are unable to see for themselves. They denounce the clericalism of the past, but they fail to see their own new clericalism.
It will be interesting to look at these pages in future years.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 28, 2020 0:36:43 GMT
Fr Seamus Ahearne continues to throw what he considers pearls of wisdom before the orthodox swine: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/06/if-these-walls-could-speak/EXTRACT When the familiar is taken away (shutdown), we have to become very creative. ‘The Real Presence’ was a serious discussion on our theological journey. It is time then, that we made that ‘Presence’ very real today. Too often it hasn’t been real. Passive Masses have nothing to do with the ‘Real Presence.’ The reality isn’t there. The rather ‘magical’ understanding and practice of Sacrament, doesn’t respect that reality either. I was wondering also if celibacy wasn’t an affront to Corpus Christi in its full reality? I am only asking. END OF EXTRACT Most recently: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/06/shalom/EXTRACT The holier-than-thou attitude, reminds me of the rigidity in Church life in our past. Like the elitist Neo-catechumenate who prefer a Private Easter Vigil. Or Catholic Schools being only for practising Catholics or the purist view that Baptism at Mass can only be for those who are deeply committed. Or First Communion only for those families, who regularly are at church; or admittance to the Table of the Eucharist being only for those who are upright and haven’t been divorced. Or only a welcome to the Church for those who aren’t cohabiting. We have suffered from doctrinaire positions in Church life for years and stood on the pedestal of certainty and pomposity. I feel there are shades of this, in the stance of the Greens at present. The branches on the trees wave in the breeze. Flexibility is essential in the thrust of any real conversation. Rigidity is a distortion of humanity. Shalom. END OF EXTRACT I thank thee, O Lord, that I am not as those Pharisees! How dare anyone suggest that a chess club is for chess players, and something important is lost if the chess players have to put up with trombone music blurting in their ears when they are trying to concentrate! How dare anyone favour a style of liturgical worship I don't like - obviously elitism, so different from my insistence that everyone must do things the way I like! A lot of trads are very suspicious of the Neocats, so it's interesting to see them singled out for Fr Ahearne's brand of "inclusive" reprobation. Perhaps I do Fr Ahearn an injustice, but he strikes me as having less in common with Catholicism as traditionally understood than another famous Augustinian had: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 14, 2020 20:30:16 GMT
The Where Peter Is site is devoted to defending Pope Francis against conservative/traditionalist critics, and often IMHO lapses into polemic. All the moe striking that they saw clearly how the ACP's statement on the referendum to repeal the Pro-Life Amendment played fast and loose with truth and conscience. This also sheds some light on the ACP's consistent claims that they can tell us what Pope Francis really, really wants. wherepeteris.com/malforming-consciences-in-ireland/
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 24, 2020 22:33:03 GMT
Once more we tune in to the wacky world of the ACP website, where we find Fr Brendan Hoban opining that the canonisation of St John Henry Newman symbolises the great change brought about in the Church by Pope Francis: www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/08/brendan-hobans-western-people-article-18th-august-the-church-must-breathe-in-a-modern-society/EXTRACT It was no surprise that the canonisation of John Henry Newman took place while Francis was pope. It would have been a considerable surprise if it had happened under Popes Benedict or John Paul. While Newman’s conversion to Catholicism in the cut and thrust of inter-church rivalry in the un-ecumenical nineteenth century was regarded as particularly significant and his enchantment with Catholicism regarded as a triumph for the Catholic Church, he was long regarded with suspicion as being ‘not one of us’. Newman made no secret of his continuing regard for his Anglican heritage. Another reason was Newman’s respect for what he called ‘the development of doctrine’. Or in other words, his conviction that Church teaching changes. This runs counter to the presumed traditional belief that the teaching of the Catholic Church never changes, that it is set in stone, that it hasn’t changed and that it can’t change. It has and it does as competent theologians will widely attest. Indeed it might be said that for Francis – apart from Newman’s holiness – the development of doctrine may have been the compelling reason for his sainthood. Because slowly but surely during Francis’ short pontificate, it’s clear that an exercise in the development of doctrine (or a change in church teaching) is taking place... END OF EXTRACT How odd. I formed the distinct impression that Pope Benedict XVI beatified St JHN in 2010 during his Papal visit to Britain, and regularly praised Newman as a model of sanctity. That was only 10 years ago, and extracts from the ceremonies were regularly rebroadcast around the time of the canonisation. Surely Fr Hoban has not forgotten these recent events - or is he so blinded by ideological blinkers that he failed to notice them at all? He could refresh his memory on Youtube - here, for example, is a clip which will take him less than 2 minutes to view: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly1c964vK4M Fr Hoban goes on to opine that Newman's importance lies in his concept of the development of doctrine, which he describes as acknowledging that doctrine changes when the Vatican bureaucrats are trying to pretend that it never changes at all. Alas, Fr Hoban has not read Newman on the development of doctrine, or if he has read him he hasn't understood him. Newman's whole point is that a doctrine can develop in its application while remaining the same in essentials (acorn becoming oak), and that if it DID change in essentials that would show that it was false. Fr Hoban's examples clearly show that HE is thinking of "development" as change into something entirely different, so that we might decide tomorrow that Arius was right after all if that is what best comports with modern civilisation as defined by Fr Hoban. Alas for blind guides and those led astray by them - including the hapless readers of the WESTERN PEOPLE.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 28, 2020 23:44:10 GMT
Following up on his recent excursion into Newman scholarship, which is debunked even by Fr Joseph O'Leary (credit where credit is due) in the relevant combox, Fr Hoban now one again compares tolerating conservative/traditionalist Catholics to appeasing the Nazis. (He gets his "crocodile" metaphor from a speech by Churchill on the subject.) In this case, he may have some legitimate cause for complaint if his description is accurate (bear in mind he is clearly parti pris). EXTRACT Some of that whirlwind was evident on the following weekend, when the decision to suspend the Knock ceremonies on August 15 in the interests of health and safety of pilgrims in these COVID-19 times, brought a cohort of extreme ‘Christians’, as they described themselves, to Knock protesting against the suspension of the ceremonies and later to Ballyhaunis, protesting against friendly relations with the Muslim community. The tactic was to lambast bishops and priests, accusing them of heresy, shouting scurrilous comments at them, filming their speeches and using social media to publicise their protests. And all the while proclaiming their devotion to ‘our mother Mary’, whom I suspect was none too happy with their shenanigans. The religio-political cocktail that emerged from the bizarre speeches suggest that an anti-immigration platform is a key part of their philosophy coupled with the most extreme ultra-right Catholic grouping so far. So far, in this jurisdiction the anti-immigration lobby has made very little political progress and has been widely rejected by the electorate in their few outings. Now, it would seem, an effort is being made to wed the anti-immigration platform to whatever groups in Irish society have become progressively frustrated in recent years, including Catholic extremist, in order to build some kind of populist movement.... END OF EXTRACT www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/08/facing-down-the-catholic-churchs-crocodile-the-weekly-western-people-article-from-brendan-hoban/ I don't know which particular groups or individuals were involved, or what exactly they did or said, but some of Fr Hoban's complaints unfortunately sound plausible. There is definitely a tendency for wild accusations to be thrown about, for assumptions to be made that bishops and priests whom we don't like are necessarily in bad faith, and to assume that the Covid epidemic does not require legitimate health precautions (whether these go too far is another matter) and there is definitely a tendency for far-right and anti-immigrant groups to go fishing for support among trad Catholics, sadly with some success. Laudate Dominum, omnes gentes... Bishop Shanahan, pray for us all. That said, it is also clear that Fr Hoban is trying to smear all conservative and traditionalist Catholics with responsibility for whatever happened at Knock and Ballyhaunis. He insinuates, for example, that the toleration of the EF Mass was an unjustified act of appeasement, with the clear implication that it should be suppressed altogether - this from a group which is always calling for democracy, toleration and pluralism - for themselves alone, it seems. His claim that conservative and traditionalist Catholics have been mollycoddled by church authorities will come as news, for example, to Catholic prolifers and pro-family activists (as well as doctrinal/liturgical conservatives; note these groups are not necessarily coterminous) who have had the misfortune to run into a "liberal" PP, curate, bishop or religious superior laying down their own version of clericalism with the extent of a few favoured lay friends on committees, or to Maynooth seminarians who have been intimidated for showing traditionalist sympathies, saying the Rosary etc. I would also like to know what he thinks of those "liberal" groups (some closely associated with the ACP) who regularly picket the Papal Nunciature in support of their pet causes, or who suggest - for example -that clerical abuse derives fromtraditional Catholicism. (It is not confined either to trads or liberals, alas.)
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 18, 2020 21:08:51 GMT
Another ACP member denounces "ultra-Catholics" whom he compares to the alt-right (i.e. to nazis and racists). To be fair, some of the behaviour he complains about is genuinely shocking (someone climbing over a dividing barrier in order to receive communion from the priest rather than a layperson, even though the barrier is there for the valid reason of preventing infection; personal abuse of Fr Farragher in Ballyhaunis over the Islamic prayer incident, protestors banging on Archbishop Martin's car at the Croke Park Eid-al-adha). I think there is such a thing as decorum and courtesy, and even if a priest is refusing the communicant their right to receive on the tongue (note there has been a Vatican pronouncement that we have the right to do so, it is better to give way rather than to cause a scandal by disuption at Mass. Complaints should also be made with equanimity and an assumption of good faith in the person complaine of. That said, I don't like Fr Power assuming that all traditional or conservative Catholics are New World Order Conspiracy theorists, and the ACP preaching obedience is like Satan rebuking sin. www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2020/09/there-must-be-a-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics-fr-liam-powers-fortnightly-column-in-the-waterford-news-and-star/
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