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Post by goldenfleece on Jan 31, 2011 14:35:11 GMT
I thought this had long been dispensed with-may I merely ask politely why it figures on this board. I promise to listen hard.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 31, 2011 15:20:23 GMT
Because by discussing how people have been taken in by hysterical fraudsters such as Clemente Dominguez in the past, we may be able to put people on their guard against similar deceptions in the future. The idea is to teach discernment - as in the late Fr Herbert Thurston's studies of bogus and/or hysterical mystics.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 31, 2011 15:22:07 GMT
I might add that the Palmarian church still exists and has members in Ireland, though I understand it has become introversionist and explicitly cultist, and so is not likely to deceive many more apart from those who have already been drawn into it.
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Post by latinmass1983 on Jan 3, 2012 18:54:49 GMT
I might add that the Palmarian church still exists and has members in Ireland, though I understand it has become introversionist and explicitly cultist, and so is not likely to deceive many more apart from those who have already been drawn into it. It is not only cultist, it is also heretical and completely crazy. It is also extremely wrong in everything they use (vestments, pontificalia, etc.), and they are very scandalous. I frankly do not know how people can be deceived into somethign like this because these problems have existed from the very beginning of the group.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 3, 2012 19:07:26 GMT
Vestments and pontificalia are the least of what is wrong with that group. The problem with this, as with other cults, is that it starts off with a facade and sucks people in gradually. People don't begin to join this sort of cult on the basis of a dispassionate investigation - they begin by wanting to find a "truly orthodox" church or religious order free from present corruptions/apostasy, or to have an inside track on a Marian apparition. That is why the Church has always had a process for discerning/investigating private revelations which was relaxed (very unwisely IMHO) after Vatican II and which Pope Benedict is tightening up again. A really successful conman, such as Clemente Dominguez was when he began his wretched career, doesn't just fool his victims - he sets up a situation where they deceive themselves. Some will realise they are being fooled at various stages, but for others the more they are fooled the harder it becomes to realise this because it means admitting they have wasted an ever-larger portion of their lives. Palmar de Troya is unlikely to suck in many more new recruits aside from those born into the cult, because it has gone into an introversionist phase whose central focus is keeping control of those it already has in its grasp. Its importance now is as a reminder of what unauthorised apparitions and ubertraditionalist/sedevacantist groups can develop into after an initial pretence of orthodoxy.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 30, 2012 11:16:03 GMT
Did I hear the Palamarians had a new 'pope'?
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 22, 2012 0:21:41 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 16, 2013 15:14:45 GMT
The Dialogue Ireland blog gives an account by a recent defector from the Palmarian Church in Ireland. A couple of points worth noting_ (1) Cult members are not necessarily passive; often, as with this woman's mother, they WANT to be fooled because it validates their sense of being special and superior. (2) There are some implications in this that Palmarianism is becoming more introverted and cutting its members off from the world, as state authorities become more inquisitive about what is being taught to their children and how they are being brought up. The suggestion that Palmarians outside Spain are being encouraged to come to Palmar, and the report that the cult is putting more pressure on family ties so as to have children and individual adults under its complete control, could be worrying signs that it is preparing for a final apocalyptic showdown a la Jonestown by purging all but the totally committed. (3) The abbreviated mass of the Palmarian Rite is well-known to those who have studied the cult, but I haven't heard of the practice of celebrating easter on a fixed date before - obviously this is another product of the cult's policy of maximising difference between Palmarians and orthodox catholics so as to cut their members off from the real Church. Of course the Palmarian so-called Pope calls himself Gregory XVIII, not Gregory VIII. dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/16/palmar-de-troya-ongoing-abuse-by-a-palmarian-escapee/#more-9663EXTRACT Palmar de Troya: Ongoing abuse by a Palmarian Escapee. Posted on June 16, 2013 by dialogueireland We are publishing this account from a Palmarian Escapee as a service to those who are still struggling to free themselves and as it illustrates two points: 1. “So I went to the internet to investigate and when I saw what was written about Palmar, it struck a chord.” Note the power of the internet to assist people to have an outside reference to see what they are feeling is not nuts! 2. “Actually, there’s worse that you do not know about. This is an important point. Generally the public do not realise that in cults things are often worse than people can believe. Palmarian Escapee I have just left the Palmarian Church four months ago……… My friend came out with me and my sister and her husband left the previous June 2012. I was admitted to this church when I was fifteen in the midst of the extreme modernism of Vatican 2, with all the trendy masses and lack of respect and sanctity in the church. To my Mother, Palmar seemed an attractive option because it provided everything that Rome didn’t. Its not entirely true that everyone in Palmar is vulnerable. In fact in common with most cults, some people see the rules as a means of attaining goals and it often elevates their pride when they have achieved something. Its a very dangerous cult with very sophisticated brain washing techniques. I believe that it was created as a sort of business because it provided all those traditional trimmings in return for people donating property and vast amounts of money. People have accepted all sorts of things in Palmar that they would not normally. For instance Easter has now been changed. Its not on a Sunday now but supposedly on the date it should have been. I was brain washed just like anybody else in that church until Good Friday of 2012, when I felt the presence of Our Lord following me about all day. They had also changed Good Friday to another day. I felt God was signalling to me that this was not right. So I went to the internet to investigate and when I saw what was written about Palmar, it struck a chord. Actually, there’s worse that you do not know about. The mass they have is stripped of everything else but the three essential parts: the offertory, consecration and the communion. And they are in the process of getting married people to draw up legal documents to split their assets to 50/50 and then I think they will concentrate on breaking up palmarian marriages. Some families with children who cannot speak with other children in school have been reported to the council and Gregory VIII (the latest) has ordered them to leave their country to reside in Palmar. This has meant that the husband has had to stay back to work while his wife and children live in the village of Palmar. I wonder whether the rules are tightening up further because if more people leave, their money will dry up. However I think that the monies have always gone to the top people to enjoy with their private bank accounts etc at the expense of the poor nuns who live in absolute proverty. In retrospect, the whole place should be closed down and some of the top people arrested. The sooner the better. I have a very traumatic history in this church and could write a book on it. All my family have suffered from being connected with it. All of us that have left recently are now suffering from extreme anxiety, probably post traumatic shock. Kathy goes on about visions and relevations, That I’m afraid where all this confusion stemmed from. I think all catholics should concentrate on the basics: the mass, praying and the gospels, otherwise they could go astray like my Mother did and dragged us all with her. END
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 12, 2013 23:34:12 GMT
In this context we should note the recent death of Catherine Broadbery, widow of Des Broadbery. There was a tribute to her in the IRISH TIMES - I believe by a family member. It mentioned their Legion of MAry involvement (that was where they met) but understandably glossed over how they and their family were taken in and exploited by the criminal pseudo-visionary and antipope Clemente Dominguez and his scam cult. It is all so sad. During the 1983 referendum campaign I knew someone who had been in the Save Article 44 campaign which was chaired by Des Broadbery, though she never said much about him I got the impression that she remembered him as a good man. It was this (accurate) sense that the country was going off the rails, and fear of what it might mean for their family, that left some open to exploitation by Dominguez and other charlatans. Pray for the Broadberys and for all who were victimised by the Palmar cult and similar operations.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 13, 2013 12:00:41 GMT
I saw that obit and it was very discreet about Mrs Broadberry's connexion with Palma. Her son Ciarán was consecrated to the episcopacy by Domingez and he subsequently consecrated Michael Cox. I understand the family is now reconciled with the Church.
I believe the family was from Gorey, Co Wexford. I recall accompanying my parents to the Strawberry Fair in Enniscorthy in 1992 - something we did as children, but this was the sole occasion I did it as a young adult. We stopped in Gorey and took fish and chips in an old style resaurant which had images of every pope from Pio Nono to Paul VI, and then "Sua Santidad, El Papa Gregorio XVII".
The following day I was back in Maynooth and while walking to a coffee shop in the town from the library with a friend of mine and I told him the tale. We ordered coffee and another friend of mine joined us (the first was a theology graduate; the second, one of the very few Protestant students in Maynooth at the time). We were talking about religious matters to be interrupted by an elderly, well-dressed and well-spoken woman, with the words "The Pope is going to hell" (John Paul II had been admitted to hospital that morning). We reacted in silence. "Three popes are already in Hell" (still silence. I understood this to mean John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul II; which is not orthodox Palmarianism; Dante assigned a lot more popes than that to hell. Our Anglican friend was mystified.) "He's not a pope; he's an antipope" (more silence). "You think you're educated and you don't know that." (still silence. We weren't going to engage.) "It was all prophesised beforehand. They will believe lies to be truth and the truth to be lies." (She clearly meant us, but we weren't going to talk). At this point, she disappeared and my Anglican friend asked me was she a witch.
A couple of days later, I went back there. The late Mgr Cremin was having tea or coffee with two of his former students, both elderly priests, at another table and the waitress serving them was an older lady who had been on duty during the first instant. When she approached our table, I asked her had the woman come back. She made the sign of the cross, as if to ward off some evil spirit, and said something to the effect of "No. Thank God.", which not unlike the Protestant reaction, is not the type of thing these people expect. I thought this was not quite what the distressed lady would have expected.
I mentioned the two instants a couple of months later to some people I met at the traditional Latin Mass in St Paul's, Arran Quay who in turn mentioned it to others who had Wexford connexions and usually went to the SSPX in Mounttown. They called on the fish and chip shop and found there was a very elaborate oratory at the back of it. I heard the Broadberrys had something to with this.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 13, 2013 23:12:23 GMT
"Bishop" Pat Buckley claims on his blog that "Bishop" Ciaran Broadbery and his wife, after reconciling with the Church, joined the Neocatechumenate (which is in communion with the Church, though very controversial) and is now a homeopath in Co. Kilkenny (didn't say whether he is still a Neocat). "Bishop" Buckley takes an interest in Ciaran Broadbery because he derives his alleged episcopal orders from him via "Bishop" Pat Cox and therefore takes every opportunity to assert their validity. I am sorry to say that "Bishop" Buckley's orders are probably indeed valid, and I add that he is worthy to carry on the spiritual legacy of Clemente Dominguez. I refuse to link to "bishop" Buckley's blog in principle because it is full of scurrilous gossip and other ravings, but a websearch will easily turn it up.
I got the impression from Mrs Broadbery's obit that the family were not originally from Gorey but lived there for a time; I don't know if any of them are still there.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 20, 2014 21:30:59 GMT
Dialogue Ireland links to an useful account of Palmar for beginners. (Note that the fact that I link to Dialogue Ireland for information does NOT mean that I endorse all the views expressed by/on that site.) The author believes the Palmarians got their cash from appealing to a network of wealthy European aristocratic trads (especially in the early days when they were still presenting themselves as a trad group within the church) and from property investments (now affected by the economic crash in Spain). A terrible reminder of the dangers of taking every self-proclaimed visionary at face value. dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2014/10/15/journeys-to-the-bizarre-the-basilica-of-palmar-de-troya-by-nick-rider/
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Post by Young Ireland on Jun 26, 2015 7:55:08 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 26, 2015 10:38:08 GMT
This could actually be worrying. As noted earlier in this thread, there have been reports for some time that the Palmarian leadership is trying to get its hard-core followers to abandon everything and come to Palmar, and the sale of their Irish HQ (which presumably means they won't have an Irish Mass venue anymore) will be part of this. Considering the cult's apocalyptic mindset and the well-known tendency for people inhabiting a delusional worldview to become more and more self-destructive as external reality presses in on them, it could be very dangerous indeed.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jun 26, 2015 17:12:59 GMT
This could actually be worrying. As noted earlier in this thread, there have been reports for some time that the Palmarian leadership is trying to get its hard-core followers to abandon everything and come to Palmar, and the sale of their Irish HQ (which presumably means they won't have an Irish Mass venue anymore) will be part of this. Considering the cult's apocalyptic mindset and the well-known tendency for people inhabiting a delusional worldview to become more and more self-destructive as external reality presses in on them, it could be very dangerous indeed. Indeed. I'm not sure how it will all finish in the end. I think the prospects of a Jonestown or Waco-style showdown are fairly slim: the only way that I can see it happening is if the Spanish try and indict the Palmarian Church for tax evasion of something similar. Of course, the slimness of such a prospect is of cold comfort to the families of those involved.
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