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Post by guillaume on Feb 10, 2010 13:26:32 GMT
Interesting article from the Scotish Herald. Notice that the TLM is not welcomed BUT even the Pope himself !
Just a fraction of Catholics wants a traditional Latin mass
The Archdiocese of Glasgow says there is little appetite for traditional Tridentine mass in Latin ALISON CAMPSIE
0 commentsPublished on 20 Jan 2010
Only 26 out of 52,000 practising Catholics in Scotland’s largest diocese choose to take part in traditional Latin mass, as championed by Pope Benedict in a series of Vatican reforms.
The figures have been compiled by the Archdiocese of Glasgow ahead of the planned papal visit to Scotland this year.
Several Scottish bishops are said to be unenthusiastic about the Pope’s arrival in Scotland, on the basis that modern religious practices appear to be at odds with the Vatican, which is keen to “reform the reforms” of the 1960s.
But the Archdiocese of Glasgow says there is little appetite for traditional Tridentine mass in Latin among worshippers, with only 0.05% in favour.
In a letter in today’s Herald, Monsignor Peter Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Glasgow, writes: “Not one of my parishioners has ever expressed a desire to re-introduce the Tridentine Mass, and many have stated that they have no desire to do so.
“The overwhelming ‘sensus fidelium” [sense of the faithful] which emerged from our most recent analysis suggests that the Catholic people of the Archdiocese are content with the liturgy offered in a prayerful and dignified way in the vernacular.”
In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI lifted a restriction on the public use of Latin mass and allowed priests to celebrate it if they so wished.
James MacMillan CBE, the composer and leading Scottish Catholic, told The Herald yesterday: “The low numbers mentioned by the Archdiocese would indicate that they don’t know what the issues are.
“They don’t know what they are missing or what the higher standards of liturgy can be. It would be a shame if Scottish Catholics were denied it through a basic disobedience of The Vatican.”
He said Latin mass had the ability to reduce the “slovenliness and banality” found in some services, stressing the issue was not a division between Latin or new mass, but the need to “make liturgy better”.
But Catholic figures in Scotland yesterday echoed the findings of the Archdiocese of Glasgow.
Father Tom Boyle, treasurer of the Archdiocese of Paisley, said: “There has never been a great demand for it as far as I am aware.
“Unlike other parts of the world, the church in Scotland has never been polarised on this.”
Canon Donald MacKay, of St Columba’s Cathedral in Oban, said there was more support for a Gaelic mass than a Latin mass among parishioners.
Canon Edward Glackin, of the Diocese of Motherwell, said he conducted one weekday Latin mass, which had an attendance of 25 to 30, compared to the 1000 who attend mass on Sunday.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Feb 10, 2010 15:59:16 GMT
I gave my view of UV Scotland on another thread - there is no need to repeat it here.
The trad movement in Scotland has a mixed history. Unlike Ireland, UV Scotland has been in existence since the 1960s but this has worked against Scotland rather than for it as firstly, the movement ran out of steam by the time the indult arrived in 1984, it was too weak to do anything about it. Secondly, Scotland was too close to England for its own good. England were way ahead of the rest of the world with the indult and Scotland was focussing on a model which was in a totally different league to them rather than looking for a more appropriate model. Scotland could do worse than look at Ireland, which had more marked success in a shorter period than they had. But this may well be because the various Irish organisations were starting from scratch in 1989 and the LMSI specifically set out in 1999 to learn from EDI's failures in the 1990s.
With Scotland - the hierarchy allowed four Masses a year in four dioceses initially. These Masses took place on the same four days in the year which was always a weekday. But it wasn't as bad as that. In 1989, priests in Glasgow got Ecclesia Dei celebrets and initiated an every Sunday Mass in Glasgow, which is the largest centre of Catholic population in Scotland. This was initially in St Mary's Cathedral, but the late Cardinal Winning moved this to the suburbs in an area which was predominantly Rangers-supporting Presbyterian. Another corrallary was that the Mass in the Cathedral was in the morning and when it was moved it was in the evening. There was a problem in the SSPX chapel in Glasgow. In England and Wales, among the prayers after low Mass was a prayer for the reigning monarch. This was never the tradition in Scotland and the Catholics of Scotland generally are not amenable to praying for the monarch. Not that they are naturally Republican; some are Jacobite and regard the reigning monarch as a Hanoverian usurper. The SSPX very foolishly and non-traditionally insisted this prayer be said in their Scottish chapels, so you had the disedifying spectacle of most of the Glasgow congregation getting up after the prayer to St Michael as the prayer for the heretic Princess of Greece who calls herself Queen of England was being said. (Allow me some licence here; I am doing this in a Jacobite voice). These went to the Cathedral Mass but went back to the SSPX Mass when the cathedral Mass was switched to the evening.
The Archdiocese of Glasgow has done its level best to marginalise the traditional Mass in Glasgow over the years in location, timing, publicity and other matters and it is no surprise they are understating its significance. My question would be if it is the same 26 every week? I think not.
I think the diocese of Argyll and the Isles is disingenuous to talk about demand for Masses in Gaelic as they have never been great at providing them. The Fraser family used to have a private trad Mass in this diocese for many years and I am sure Hibernicus probably knows something about the Approaches and A Propos magazines which the late Hamish Fraser and his son Anthony respectively ran.
In Edinburgh, there was also a Sunday Mass in a private home for many years and when the owner, a Miss Neilson, died she left it to the FSSP on condition they would occupy it immediately. This is why the FSSP are in Edinburgh and are quite successful there. They also managed to establish an apostolate in the Galloway diocese. Geographically, most Scottish Catholics live in either Glasgow or Edinburgh or their environs and there isn't much more than an hour's drive on the motorway between the two - so a Mass in one or the other is probably ok. The more remote highlands and islands are a bigger challenge where the population generally, let alone the Catholics, are sparse.
So over all, I think things in Scotland are most promising than the article suggests.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 10, 2010 17:23:13 GMT
Here's a link to Catholic Truth Scotland's complaints about a similar pronouncement by Bishop Tartaglia of Paisley. Am I too suspicious in detecting a concerted campaign? I remember that in the early 1980s the Vatican asked the dioceses of the world to comment on the demand for the TLM, and Michael Davies remarked that since the diocesan bureaucrats had been actively engaged in suppressing it for the previous 15-20 years this was like trying to assess the demand for synagogues in nazi Germany by surveying the gauleiters. there seems to be something similar at work here; bishop Tartaglia disingenuously remarks that none of his priests have approached him on the subject, as if this might not be influenced by the perceived prospect of a lifetime assignment to Brig O' Nowhere or Billy Boys' Corner. www.catholictruthscotland.com/blog/?p=3693Speaking of gauleiters, I am sorry to say that after seeing a complaint about Catholic truth Scotland on Christopher Pryor's blog I put "Holocaust" into their search engine. The results are unfortunate; their view of Bishop Williamson's holocaust denial activities is at the very least unduly charitable, and I notice some contributors using "anti-Zionist" weasel words. Handle with extreme caution.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 16, 2010 11:00:21 GMT
Interesting news item from Damian Thompson. I post it here because several comments mention the situation in Scotland: blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100026178/vatican-confirms-freedom-of-priests-to-celebrate-extraordinary-form-whenever-they-like-%e2%80%93-no-need-for-stable-group/THOMPSON EXTRACT: I know of several instances in which British bishops are trying to undermine the Pope’s wishes, though I’m not going to go public where it would make the situation worse. But it is common knowledge that the situation is particularly serious is Scotland, where EF Masses are extremely rare and official claims that there is no demand for them need to be scrutinised very carefully, shall we say. More on that later. SAMPLE COMMENTS: Hmm – that follows hot on the heels of the pre-limina investigation of the Scottish Church. However – it won’t do much for the immediate career prospects of any priest foolhardy enough to take up the offer. Especially given Bp Tartaglia’s post(or pre?)-limina rant in the Scottish Catholic Observer about “Militant Ultra traditional groups”. The proximity of these events, and the pointed comments about John Ogilvy by the Pope might lead one to suspect that conversation in Rome was quite lively. dilly on Feb 15th, 2010 at 10:25 pm Report comment .... That well known statistician Mgr Peter Smith claims that there is no demand for the Extraordinary Form in the Archdiocese of Glasgow and he uses a latin phrase to summarise findings so he must be right; “Only 26 out of 52,000 practising Catholics in Scotland’s largest diocese choose to take part in traditional Latin mass, as championed by Pope Benedict in a series of Vatican reforms. The figures have been compiled by the Archdiocese of Glasgow ahead of the planned papal visit to Scotland this year. Several Scottish bishops are said to be unenthusiastic about the Pope’s arrival in Scotland, on the basis that modern religious practices appear to be at odds with the Vatican, which is keen to “reform the reforms” of the 1960s. But the Archdiocese of Glasgow says there is little appetite for traditional Tridentine mass in Latin among worshippers, with only 0.05% in favour. In a letter in today’s Herald, Monsignor Peter Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Glasgow, writes: “Not one of my parishioners has ever expressed a desire to re-introduce the Tridentine Mass, and many have stated that they have no desire to do so. “The overwhelming ‘sensus fidelium” [sense of the faithful] which emerged from our most recent analysis suggests that the Catholic people of the Archdiocese are content with the liturgy offered in a prayerful and dignified way in the vernacular.” Paul J on Feb 16th, 2010 at 3:57 am Report comment .... Damian, This is fantastic news. As already alluded to though, the bishops are likely to ignore this. It is complete nonsense to claim that only 26 people in a diocese want the older form of the Mass if this is simply not available for them and many have never been exposed to it. If individual priests refuse to offer the Traditional Mass because of some kind of ecclesiastical ambition, then they are the worst kind of cowards. The best example to the UK would be if Pope Benedict celebrated a Traditional Mass himself when he visits. English Catholic
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 14, 2010 14:44:17 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 8, 2010 14:43:06 GMT
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 19, 2010 10:53:36 GMT
Well, the stony ground of Scottish traditional Catholicism produces a vocation: that is excellent (but they have had an FSSP priest resident in Edinburgh for nearly a decade). Ireland has produced nothing like this yet.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 23, 2010 12:26:27 GMT
I presume, Alasdair, that when you say "Ireland has produced nothing like this yet", you refer specifically to the Indult groups and not the SSPX, who have produced several Irish vocations.
BTW, it is probably best not to call SSPX "Pixies" in the Scottish context, since the Scottish Episcopalian [i.e. Anglican] Church are affectionately known as "Piskies" and this may lead to confusion.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Aug 23, 2010 12:41:40 GMT
Well, there have been three Irish pixie ordinations; there has been one Irish ordination in the FSSP, but he subsequently left to join the Dublin Archdiocese. Not a good commentary on Irish traddiedom.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 25, 2010 16:13:30 GMT
I didn't know there had been an Irish FSSP ordination, even with the outcome you mention. I knew a couple of Irishmen tried their vocations at the FSSP seminary but left before ordination.
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Post by loughcrew on Aug 25, 2010 16:33:18 GMT
My only experience of the FSSP was in Namur, Belgium where they have the Chapel of St. Therese and also have permission for a Latin Mass from Monday to Friday at noon in the Cathedral of St. Aubin and I talked to the priest but he did not say anything about their mission to Ireland even though he knew I was Irish, he only mentioned the UK, but that was more than three years ago. The Bishop of Namur at the time who did not discourage the FSSP has since been made a Cardinal as far as I know.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 31, 2010 10:08:59 GMT
Fr William Richardson was ordained in the FSSP in Ottawa in 1998, he joined the Dublin Archdiocese in 2000.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Aug 31, 2010 11:25:40 GMT
Sounds like he has a name which invites a lot of trouble.
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