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Post by guillaume on Nov 2, 2009 9:47:33 GMT
10 000 persons gathered in Knock Shrine, county Mayo, last month in the hope to see a second apparition of the Blessed Lady. The apparition did not occur. Some fellows posted a home made video on youtube, in which they pretend to have filmed a remake of Fatima, the return of the dancing sun. Of course, on the video, we see nothing. All those people were reunited following the claim by so called "visionary" Mr Coleman. Coleman pretend to receive numerous messages from our Lady and he claimed that she would have appear for everyone to see in Knock. Not only they were no apparitions, but the claim had been condemned by the Bishop of Tuam. The authority at Knock should not permit those kind of gathering any-more as Knock is a genuine place of pilgrimage which has no space for "supernatural-so-called-miracle" invented by so-called visionaries who disobey to the Church ! We are swimming here in a big pool of naivety. No spiritual research, no deepness. People are looking for sensationalism. If you pray the Rosary, our Lady will appear to you. Yes, she will appear, in your heart, in your soul. In your healing, in your responses to your prayers, in the miracles of day to day life. Our Lady appears to me all the time ! In this way. There is no need for those kind of show. NO NEED AT ALL. Pray in your room, say the Lord. With humility. We are far here from humility. Very far. And as we recognize a tree according to its fruits, Coleman should think twice about misleading the flock of God. For his own sake.
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Post by Harris on Nov 2, 2009 11:55:26 GMT
Unfortunately there will always be people out ther who attempt to take advantage of others.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 2, 2009 12:20:04 GMT
A user on another forum today posted that he had attended this gathering and while looking at the sun he saw something he never saw before, that he could not identify, but that he would not be moved to consider as supernatural exactly. I am not sure what he considers it as. He then went on to say that when Coleman appeared there was a mass stampede over to him, almost like a sudden flocking. I feel the response I wrote there would serve some use here so I repeat it here now. I broke it up into certain headings for ease of reading. Small edits to the text are made to make it more relevant to this forum but the original is here: www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62804517&postcount=12GET YOUR EYES CHECKEDThe first thing I would urge anyone who attended to do is, even if you feel fine now, go to an optician to check on your eyes. That long spent looking directly, or near directly, at the sun is intensely dangerous to the eyes and can cause damage with both immediate and postponed effect. Even if you feel no ill effects from the exercise now, it is best to be safe than sorry and get yourself checked before giving any ill effects time to settle in. If you know anyone else who was there then for their sake urge them the same way. BE CAREFUL IN FUTURE EVERYONEThe second thing I would urge all of you is to NOT engage in this practise at all. Looking and even staring at the sun is intensely dangerous to your sight. If anyone does attend the next Coleman worship evening you might then for the sake of those around you urge them the same way. If a man urged others to step off a cliff or into on coming traffic the person in question would be penalised within the law. That this man is encouraging a potentially damaging act to hundreds of people that could essentially lead to a handicap and getting away with it is a mockery of our justice system. “OH CAPTAIN MY CAPTAIN!”The third thing I would call attention to here is claims of seeing "something above and beyond that of a normal autumn sky" as it was put on the other forum. The explanation for this is not to be found within the pages of the Bible or any other such scriptures. You can find the explanation for it merely by going to your local video store and watching “Dead Poets Society”. Remember the scene where he made everyone stand on a desk and look at the class room from a new angle? Essentially most humans do not notice the ordinary. They do not stop to look at the sky or the hills or the houses. When they do, they tend to do it the same way every time. It takes an outside influence to make people look at these things and then to look at them in a different way. What the man has done is to make people look at something they often would not, and while doing it to make them change the way they look at it. Often when you look at something in a new way you are surprised by what you see there that you never saw before ( I often point to this as a sample of what I mean: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77muTz0_II). All Coleman is doing is cashing in on this surprise. PEOPLE WORSHIP FIRST THE IDEA THEN THE MANFinally I would call stark attention to what 091Brian described in terms of the mass hysteria directed towards Coleman himself. To me this is essentially the first steps in how religions like Mormonism, Scientology and others form. It may be arguable that Jesus acquired his fame the same way. It is the perfect formula for personal success and it seems no matter how often it is practised it continues to work. Essentially you latch on to a superstition that is already established and make wild claims on its basis. Even if, as we see with Coleman, you fail perfectly to deliver on your claims, hysteria still builds up around you. At some point this switches from being AROUND you to being TOWARDS you and you get elevated beyond your station. Given that no one has offered me any evidence for the existence of a god, I am in no doubt that the works of Jesus occurred in the same way. Like Coleman he likely made claims he could not deliver on, but for which there were always a number of people willing to claim he had (faith healers work on the same principle, as does Coleman). This first causes a sensationalist reaction to occur AROUND the person, and then finally TOWARDS the person. Observe closely what Coleman has done and does next and how people react to it and honestly ask yourself if a man in bronze aged times surrounded by mostly illiterate and superstitious people would have had to do anything different to achieve the same effects. Ask yourself then if you can understand why Atheists on this forum reject your claims about this man in the same way, and for the exact same reasons, that you reject the claims of Coleman or Sathya Sai Baba. The worship of a mere man who gets a few things spot on right is something our species does all too easily.
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Post by guillaume on Nov 2, 2009 13:53:09 GMT
A user on another forum today posted that he had attended this gathering and while looking at the sun he saw something he never saw before, that he could not identify, but that he would not be moved to consider as supernatural exactly. I am not sure what he considers it as. He then went on to say that when Coleman appeared there was a mass stampede over to him, almost like a sudden flocking. I feel the response I wrote there would serve some use here so I repeat it here now. I broke it up into certain headings for ease of reading. Small edits to the text are made to make it more relevant to this forum but the original is here: www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62804517&postcount=12GET YOUR EYES CHECKEDThe first thing I would urge anyone who attended to do is, even if you feel fine now, go to an optician to check on your eyes. That long spent looking directly, or near directly, at the sun is intensely dangerous to the eyes and can cause damage with both immediate and postponed effect. Even if you feel no ill effects from the exercise now, it is best to be safe than sorry and get yourself checked before giving any ill effects time to settle in. If you know anyone else who was there then for their sake urge them the same way. BE CAREFUL IN FUTURE EVERYONEThe second thing I would urge all of you is to NOT engage in this practise at all. Looking and even staring at the sun is intensely dangerous to your sight. If anyone does attend the next Coleman worship evening you might then for the sake of those around you urge them the same way. If a man urged others to step off a cliff or into on coming traffic the person in question would be penalised within the law. That this man is encouraging a potentially damaging act to hundreds of people that could essentially lead to a handicap and getting away with it is a mockery of our justice system. “OH CAPTAIN MY CAPTAIN!”The third thing I would call attention to here is claims of seeing "something above and beyond that of a normal autumn sky" as it was put on the other forum. The explanation for this is not to be found within the pages of the Bible or any other such scriptures. You can find the explanation for it merely by going to your local video store and watching “Dead Poets Society”. Remember the scene where he made everyone stand on a desk and look at the class room from a new angle? Essentially most humans do not notice the ordinary. They do not stop to look at the sky or the hills or the houses. When they do, they tend to do it the same way every time. It takes an outside influence to make people look at these things and then to look at them in a different way. What the man has done is to make people look at something they often would not, and while doing it to make them change the way they look at it. Often when you look at something in a new way you are surprised by what you see there that you never saw before ( I often point to this as a sample of what I mean: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77muTz0_II). All Coleman is doing is cashing in on this surprise. PEOPLE WORSHIP FIRST THE IDEA THEN THE MANFinally I would call stark attention to what 091Brian described in terms of the mass hysteria directed towards Coleman himself. To me this is essentially the first steps in how religions like Mormonism, Scientology and others form. It may be arguable that Jesus acquired his fame the same way. It is the perfect formula for personal success and it seems no matter how often it is practised it continues to work. Essentially you latch on to a superstition that is already established and make wild claims on its basis. Even if, as we see with Coleman, you fail perfectly to deliver on your claims, hysteria still builds up around you. At some point this switches from being AROUND you to being TOWARDS you and you get elevated beyond your station. Given that no one has offered me any evidence for the existence of a god, I am in no doubt that the works of Jesus occurred in the same way. Like Coleman he likely made claims he could not deliver on, but for which there were always a number of people willing to claim he had (faith healers work on the same principle, as does Coleman). This first causes a sensationalist reaction to occur AROUND the person, and then finally TOWARDS the person. Observe closely what Coleman has done and does next and how people react to it and honestly ask yourself if a man in bronze aged times surrounded by mostly illiterate and superstitious people would have had to do anything different to achieve the same effects. Ask yourself then if you can understand why Atheists on this forum reject your claims about this man in the same way, and for the exact same reasons, that you reject the claims of Coleman or Sathya Sai Baba. The worship of a mere man who gets a few things spot on right is something our species does all too easily. Hazel, you absolutely right. (except when you speak about our Lord of course). Actually this kind of things REALLY happened few months ago. I think it was in Spain. Dozen of people kept looking for a long time directly at the sun. in hope to see Mary or a miracle. They got blind ! Seriously. It is totally irresponsible to encourage people to do such things. In no way whatsoever our Lady will encourage such practice. How come the Mother of Heaven would like his flock to be dangerously exposed and put their health at risk ? I think Coleman is a liar or at least a manipulator who misleads naive souls. I do believe in Marian apparitions, obviously. But Lourdes or Fatima or even Knock are genuine and recognized but the Church. I am glad the Church, via the voice of the bishop of Tuam, condemned such things. Coleman is the way to create his own sect and is facing, maybe, excommunication. Same for Gallagher. Our Lord had warned us against the false prophets.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 2, 2009 14:38:24 GMT
I asked Hibernicus on another thread, and he dodged it entirely, how you tell the difference. You say you believe in some of the apparitions and not others. You believe in some prophets and not others. Or as in the conversation with Hibernicus there are posters here who believe in some artifacts and not others.
I would be interested to know what criteria you use in deciding between them? Do you defer entirely to the church to tell you which ones are real and not? Or have you your own criteria to decide somehow?
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Post by guillaume on Nov 2, 2009 15:39:07 GMT
Interesting article from the irish times :
(Hazel i will answer later on to your question).
MIRIAM LORD
Thousands flock to Knock as new Ireland trades in financial visionaries for spiritual gurus
THE DOUBLE Visionaries were in no doubt. Joe and Keith didn’t need to give an ETA – estimated time of apparition, because they could confidently announce a DHA – definite hour of arrival.
It was apparition by appointment on Saturday.
Our Lady relayed the time and co-ordinates to the two men when they spoke a few weeks ago: 3pm on October 31st, inside Knock Basilica. She would make an appearance and give a message to Joe Coleman and Keith Henderson, who say they are spiritual healers and “Visionaries of Our Blessed Mother”.
Despite Joe’s prediction that 50,000 people would turn up, the real figure was about 10,000. Most were Travellers. The young women moved in giggly groups, hundreds of them, wearing astonishingly skimpy outfits, impossibly high heels and lashings of spray-on tan. On a very strange day, in the most incongruous of surroundings, they stood out as the most compelling vision of all.
Joe and Keith arrived at midday driven by a supporter – a PR company owner from Dublin who said she was there in a personal capacity. Joe, who lives in Ballyfermot, says Our Lady has been appearing to him since he was a child.
When he saw and spoke to Our Lady in Knock on October 11th, she told him she is very angry with the Church. “They have insulted the Blessed Virgin Mary . . . She wants respect from the church.”
Joe is angry too. He claimed the Knock authorities refused to bring a statue of Mary into the Basilica (as she had requested) and that they had intended to lock the doors, but that the bishop bowed to pressure. Pat Lavelle, manager of the shrine, was at pains to point out that the basilica is open all year round. Joe, accompanied by “secondary visionary” Keith and two women holding large crucifixes, loudly vented their anger at Lavelle.
But Lavelle pointed out that the Basilica is always open. “It’s only because yis came under pressure. Why don’t you tell the truth. The lies that comes out of you. You should be ashamed of your life.”
Lavelle countered that, in the face of the indisputable facts, Joe was the “liar”.
“You should be ashamed of your life. Don’t you dare call me a liar. I am a visionary for our Blessed Mother. How dare you.” [WOW, such humility here from a son of Mary !!!!!!! my note]
“Are you a clairvoyant?” – the conversation continued. “I am what I am. What are you?” – “I’m the manager of the shrine.” “You’re a liar . . . I invited people to see our Blessed Lady – what I done last time . . . Do you not understand the truth? Why are you denying the people, the Christian people of Ireland from all over the world?” He was shaking with rage. [the son of Mary insult the gardian of the shrine, nice one....]
Keith was more relaxed. The 33-year-old became a visionary in April, after a visit “out of curiosity” to Medjugorje. “Our Blessed Mother appeared to me on Apparition Hill.” He’s seen her four times (including the imminent 3pm arrival). What happens? “I go into total awe with her and I see her pure essence.”
Anxious women approached them in the car park for details. Keith pointed to the Basilica. “In that church today, she’s appearing at three o’clock. You would want to get in early to get a seat.” People came up to touch them, whispering requests. “No, I’m not doing any healing today,” declared Keith.
Maura Martin, “a friend”, wafted ahead with a serene expression, holding a large crucifix and rosary beads. People approached her, one with a child in a wheelchair. She laid her hands on them and kissed them, although nobody seemed to know who she was. Not that it seemed to matter . . . I asked her why she was blessing people. She said the crucifix she was holding was over 100 years old. But does she have a special power? Why was she kissing people? She didn’t reply, just kissed me on the cheek, flashed that serene smile and glided on past.
“We need to be in the Basilica for 2. We normally pray for an hour before Our Lady comes,” said Joe. People approached reporters for information. “What time is Our Lady appearing?” We all said she was due at 3pm, like we were describing the next bus to Claremorris.
The church was packed. There wasn’t a priest in sight, even though there must have been a fair few lost sheep among the 7,000-strong congregation.
Joe and Keith were the centre of attention. A woman in a pink fun fur went on to the altar and started to sing a hymn. The church was noisy. Suddenly, she flicked her rosary beads aloft and let out an unmerciful shout.
“The tabernacle is here! Stop talking!” The tabernacle may have been there, but she mustn’t have known that the Blessed Host had been removed.
The prayers started. Joe and Keith were in position at a table near the altar. Forty minutes to go. Time passed slowly. Keith checked his watch every so often. He had a strange smile on his face, his eyes rolling. Both men prayed, hands pressed together.
Ten minutes. Joe checked his watch. Five minutes. The girls behind us were getting slightly hysterical. One of them was wearing a leopard print trilby. “What time is it? Are you sure Our Lady is coming here?” Four minutes. More watch checking. Our Lady must be very punctual. There were children screaming. People praying aloud. People eating crisps and sweets. Camera phones flashing. All eyes on the two men. They sipped water, an oasis of calm. Joe caressed the crucifix on the table. The rosary finished to applause.
Three. Two. One minute. “Oh, my God!” shrieked one of the girls. It was time. We held our breath. Where is she? Joe, smiling, held out his hands, palms facing outward. Keith still had that strange smile, only it was bigger, and his eyes seemed to have disappeared into the back of his head. Nothing for 15 minutes, just Joe nodding his head and mouthing an occasional “Yes”. He lifted up the crucifix. A few tears ran down his cheek.
People were drifting away. The rosary was in full swing again and the girls weren’t giving up. They prayed even louder. Joe opened a fresh bottle of water.
At 3.20, there was a kerfuffle at the upper end, opposite the choir stalls. A rush of relieved people galloped for the doors. “She’s outside. F*** ya! We shudda stayed outside!” squealed one of the girls, and they took off for the swelling stampede.
It was frightening. Chairs flew over in the rush. The place emptied, but the Double Visionaries stayed put, with a faithful few still around them.
They gazed rapturously ahead. Keith got to his feet and started to laugh. And then Joe spoke the only words we heard from him.
“Thank You, Mother” he said. A woman started to sob and another began to sing Ave Maria.
We headed for the action. On the way to the doors, two buggies in the aisle blocked the way. “Is this your baby?” demanded an angry-looking man. A newborn gurgled up from under a blanket. It wasn’t ours. “It’s disgraceful,” said his wife. “They’ve abandoned their babies and everything.”
The huge crowd was staring at the sun. It was a typical winter sun. Very bright. The comments were, to put it mildly, daft.
“I can see the sun! I can see it! . . . It’s coming out from behind a cloud! Look, look! It’s pink now. Oooh. That must be the rays.” Two couples in their 60s or so – the Traveller/settled ratio had evened up a bit outside – marvelled at the sky, soon to settle into a fabulous winter sunset.
“It’s a disc. Yes. A disc. It’s like . . . it’s like the Host.” A young woman watched, shuddering with excitement. “It is. It’s dancing!” It’s just the sun, we said to the lad next to us. “Do you not see the colours?” he pleaded. “Sure people took pictures of it the last time, and they saw a lady in it.” I looked up, for sure, but not for too long, because it hurt. Half blind, I headed indoors and tripped over a child in the gloom.
Jason and Crystal Delaney from Salthill in Galway didn’t go outside. They had seen an apparition of Our Lady on the wall above the choir stalls.
“A minute ago it was beaming, changing from Our Lady to Our Lord,” insisted Jason. And if you looked hard enough, you could indeed discern a face in the play of light and shadows. When I squinted a certain way, I thought I could make out Bruce Forsyth.
Let’s not forget the thunder. There was none in Knock on Saturday, but Jason heard it. People said afterwards that it sparked the stampede. (Not the woman who hurried out carrying a crucifix or the teenage boys who ran out, making a lot of noise and knocking over chairs.)
Brenda Wilson, the woman in the pink fur jacket who led the rosary “to keep the spiritual atmosphere going”, felt the Earth move. “I did hear an amazing rumble, though. I felt it here,” she said, thumping her chest. “I felt it in my soul, like a mini-earthquake.” She flew in from London, and said it was marvellous to witness such a display of devotion on October 31st, All Souls’ Day. “I work with exorcist priests, and I know about devil worship.”
Amid the hubbub, the Double Visionaries were spirited out and whisked away in a van. Joe said he had received a message from Our Lady, but she didn’t want him to reveal it yet. Maybe later. He seemed a little deflated.
In Claremorris, in the comfort of the McWilliam Hotel, the receptionist told us a guest came in and said she heard that a little boy had been cured of blindness.
Then everyone went to the Halloween dance.
It’s all change in Ireland. A few years ago, the country was busy lauding and worshipping “visionaries” like Seán FitzPatrick of Anglo Irish Bank.
Now we have Joe and Keith.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 2, 2009 15:59:17 GMT
Women abandoning their own children? Forgetting what is important seems to be part of this faith of theirs To leave abandoned the most special thing in their life, their own children, in search of something that appears to exist only in the minds of the deluded. How sickening. Not only do I see no evidence for a god in this world, nor has anyone shown me any, I am quite relieved such a thing appears not to exist. It is both disgusting and a cause of disgusting behavior in others. I am really disgusted by the above story and the actions of some of the people in it.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 2, 2009 18:10:51 GMT
Hazel asks how to distinguish true and false apparitions. One way of distinguishing is that true apparitions promote virtue while false apparitions promote sensationalism and such reckless behaviour as he rightly condemns. Before he proclaims how glad he is that God does not exist if belief in God promotes such behaviour, he might consider that this is no more an argument against belief in God than the well-known misbehaviour of certain atheists is an argument in favourof God's existence. Here, for example, is an extract from the Wikipedia bio of the American atheist campaigner Madalyn Murray O'Hair: In 1980, William Murray [one of her sons] was baptised at a Baptist church in Dallas, where he took up work as a preacher. This led to a permanent estrangement between mother and son. As she put it, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...he is beyond human forgiveness."[21]
Murray spoke critically and regretfully of his mother after her disappearance:
"My mother was an evil person... Not for removing prayer from America's schools... No, she was just evil. She stole huge amounts of money. She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance. She cheated on her taxes and even stole from her own organizations. She once printed up phony stock certificates on her own printing press to try to take over another atheist publishing company....Regardless of how evil and lawless my mother was she did not deserve to die in the manner she did."[12]
Murray claimed his mother had illegally stashed "tens of millions" away.[2] He attempted to gain "guardianship" over his missing mother and brother's assets, declaring they had stolen money, and said, "My brother had a tendency to fall for con games and con artists".[2]
In an episode of City Confidential that covered O'Hair, a former employee of American Atheists stated that another former employee had told him of a foreign bank account where O'Hair had deposited $18 million of American Atheists money. He noted that he had heard the story from someone and, therefore, that it was technically hearsay. He then said that he himself had seen a New Zealand bank statement showing a balance of $1.2 million of American Atheists money in New Zealand currency, which
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 2, 2009 18:12:27 GMT
There are a very elaborate set of church guidelines for assessing apparitions. These may not return an automatic answer like a computer, but they are a good place to start the winnowing-down process which is a prerequisite of any knowledge. Their enforcement was unfortunately relaxed after Vatican II, which helps to bring abotut his sort of delusion.
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Post by guillaume on Nov 3, 2009 8:20:15 GMT
Well, in order to recognize a truth from a false apparition, we have to trust the judgement of the church. Mother church, wiser than us, pursue an investigation regarding a supernatural phenomena and then decide if the phenomena is real or not. The decision is based according to the authenticity of the events and their supernatural, divine in origin, characters. Actually real apparitions are quite rare. Lourdes, Fatima, Knock, Guadaloupe or La Salette are real. But Medjugorge for example present so many doubtful issues that the church did not recognize them as true and real. Some others, like Garabandal in Spain, present certain points which make the event real. But until now, the church did not recognize it. I have a tendency to believe in Garabandal even if the church did not recognize it just yet. But Garabandal had not be condemned by the ordinary, the local bishop, while Medjugorge had. Personally also, you have to think a bit and try to recognize the fruits. Mary appears, most of the time, in very remote place to unknown and innocent people, mostly children. Visionaries usually stay humble and behave in a holy way. To receive a genuine apparition is an immense grace and a form of election. The best and pure example of an authentic apparition is Saint Bernadette Soubiroux of Lourdes. Her behaviour during and after the apparitions is so holy that there is not doubt of her genuine witness. However an apparition DOES NOT REPLACE the teaching of the church and the catechism. It is a SIGN of God in order to help the souls at some points. Coleman attitude and behaviour ARE NOT from God but the devil.
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Post by guillaume on Nov 3, 2009 8:30:32 GMT
ACTUALLY we should organise a protest in Knock on the 8 of december to defend the Truth - which is in Christ, and the honour of Mary against this person. WE MUST DEFEND KNOCK. Mary, queen of Ireland pray for us. Who's with me ?
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 3, 2009 9:05:47 GMT
Hibernicus,
I did not put forward my relief as evidence against god. Quite the opposite. I started my sentence with “Not only….”.
In other words:
I see no evidence for a god being offered. Stop. I am also quite relieved by this. Stop. Clearer now?
So I will not bother replying to your post. It is entirely directed at a position I do not hold, and in fact I agree with you that the actions of people who believe something (good or bad) have no implication as to whether what they believe is itself true or false.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 3, 2009 9:11:56 GMT
Guillame,
So in order to decide if an apparition, artefact or prophet is the real deal you must trust in the church? I am afraid this leaves us with an infinite regress problem as how did you first decide they were the real deal and not also false prophets who have built up power and money in the name of your church?
I thank you for answering the question which was avoided by users on another thread, but I am sorry the answer was so disappointing. The idea that you relieve doubt on ‘X’ by ignoring it in ‘Y’ and then using ‘Y’ to support ‘X’ is logically absurd to me.
In the meantime the story pasted above still leaves me in a rage. That people in the search of something special would run away and abandon defenceless the one special thing they have done in their lives… is beyond disgusting to me.
And nothing is offered here to show their faith, which led them to do this, is any more accurate than yours.
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Post by guillaume on Nov 3, 2009 10:29:39 GMT
Guillame, So in order to decide if an apparition, artefact or prophet is the real deal you must trust in the church? I am afraid this leaves us with an infinite regress problem as how did you first decide they were the real deal and not also false prophets who have built up power and money in the name of your church? I thank you for answering the question which was avoided by users on another thread, but I am sorry the answer was so disappointing. The idea that you relieve doubt on ‘X’ by ignoring it in ‘Y’ and then using ‘Y’ to support ‘X’ is logically absurd to me. In the meantime the story pasted above still leaves me in a rage. That people in the search of something special would run away and abandon defenceless the one special thing they have done in their lives… is beyond disgusting to me. And nothing is offered here to show their faith, which led them to do this, is any more accurate than yours. I feel like speaking to a wall here. that is the problem. You do not believe in the Church, as we do. So any reference to it, will sound nothing to you. Understand ? No dialogue is possible. No spiritual research, no quest for the Truth. We always have the same answers in the opposite party. "no evidence, no god, no nothing". I could speak of Mary : she does not exist. I could speak of Jésus, a mere prophet, a guru, leader of a sect. I could speak of the church, an human institution made of canabis junkie. Despite our efforts to have a conversation on spiritual matters, we always reach to the same thing. This is why this atheist versus catholics lead to no where. We are in total opposite camp. And, on my disappointed point of view, there is no need for us to discuss with you as you already made your point, and already made up your own answers. This is not interesting at all. Waste of time. And believe me, i tried.
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Post by guillaume on Nov 3, 2009 10:33:26 GMT
but you can discuss of flowers or the last movie in cinema if you want. We can even have a tea somewhere. I would love it. Internet is fine but not as good as human relationship, isnt it ?
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