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Post by loughcrew on Aug 17, 2011 9:03:40 GMT
Has anyone visited the Church of the Immaculate Conception in Clondalkin, County Dublin? I think it is Pugin designed on a medium to small scale and the interior has not been knocked about with too much post Vatican II, the side altars are intact. There is a beautiful convent building attatched to the church and a gated stone arch entrance way off one roadf rendering the whole a spiritual and architectural gem in a place where you might not expect to see one.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 14, 2011 20:42:14 GMT
I called into the neo-romanesque Augustinian Church on O'Connell St Limerick last week. While it doesn't knock one out and it is a pity the back of the church is partitioned off the church, it is very nice.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 26, 2011 20:41:36 GMT
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Nov 29, 2011 20:15:48 GMT
I called into St Patrick's Cathedral in Cavan recently. Very nice neo-classical - though I think it is newer than the neo-classical period.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 29, 2011 22:42:41 GMT
I think I was there once years ago. If by "the neo-classical period" you mean the first half/two thirds of the nineteenth century (when Irish Catholic churches tended to be built in neo-classical style because the Roman churches were seen as model) it's certainly later than that - Wikipedia says work on it began in 1938. I believe Gothic was never completely dominant and some neo-classical churches continued to be built down to Vatican II (the planned Lutyens Cathedral in Liverpool would have been neo-classical). There was something of a neo-classical revival in the early twentieth century (I suspect it was seen as expressing strength and clarity, with Gothic coming to be regarded as fussy and chocolate-boxy) but the style's association with authoritarian regimes has told against it more recently. I suspect a certain type of person would regard the cathedral as reflecting 1930s "triumphalism". The Cathedral of Christ the King in Mullingar is of similar style and vintage. Oddly enough, John Charles McQuaid favoured rather undistinguished Hiberno-Romanesque and neo-Byzantine styles for churches built under his rule in Dublin. I wonder why he chose those styles in particular, given his general Romanitas. (The Cooney biography in this as much else is no help - Cooney is so ignorant he seems to think McQuaid invented the expression "Hiberno-Romanesque")
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jaykay
Junior Member
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Post by jaykay on Feb 8, 2012 12:42:03 GMT
The church of St. Oliver Plunkett in Blackrock Co. Louth is a good example of Hiberno-Romanesque (1922) and built on a striking site, an elevation, overlooking Dundalk Bay. Its tower is a bit of a landmark for anyone sailing in the bay. Unfortunately there are no interior shots in this link armagharchdiocese.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79The original High Altar reredos with tabernacle is still in place, with a beautiful set of 6 original candlesticks, and the original mensa has just been moved forward, but of course (!) the altar rail is gone. However, wreckovation has been minimal otherwise. Last time I was in it about 3 years ago it could certainly have done with a good coat of paint.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 16:20:43 GMT
I have two questions. I'm trying to remember what was on the altar before the icon was put in two years ago in St. Joseph's Church beside the Mater. Can anyone jog my memory? www.flickr.com/photos/infomatique/5495345961/in/photostream/Secondly, I was asked a while back where the Mass was in Clonliffe College, officially Holy Cross. One of the neighbours told me it was the blue door on the left, up the stairs, when you walk into the park. Is that correct?
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Post by Modern Irish Churches on May 16, 2012 22:07:24 GMT
What are your opinions on modern style churches in Ireland? Check out my website im doing an oral history project in this area.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on May 21, 2012 13:51:13 GMT
I think the problem with many modern churches is they don't do much for most people, but this is not of the same order of older churches that have been basically vandalised.
I'll try to think of a modern church that strikes me as beautiful.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jul 19, 2012 11:30:28 GMT
I saw some images of St Agatha's Church, North William St, Dublin 1. Looks good - anyone ever been there?
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 6, 2012 19:52:04 GMT
I was at 11 o'clock Mass today in St Saviour's (Dominican) church in Dominick Street. This turned out very appropriately for the Feast of the Transfiguration as the central window in the east wall shows the Transfiguration. The Dominicans sang the Office beforehand with great beauty. Whatever we may think of the changes to the altar area, it's still a beautiful church and it seems to be kept busy (with Polish chaplaincy work, amongst other things). The basic structure of the nave, with the heads of Dominican saints along it, is very fine. I must confess, however that I find the sight of St Vincent Ferrer offputting ever since I read E. Michael Jones' eulogy to his forcible conversions of Jews in the wretched rag that still calls itself CHRISTIAN ORDER. I wish they would stick him in a dark corner and put St Martin de Porres in his place. (I read Fr Benedict Groeschel's little essay on St Martin recently; what profound kindness and gentleness!)
ADDENDUM - Perhaps I was a little hasty in my comment on St Vincent Ferrer. He was a saint and a great preacher; to be a saint is not to be an angel nor to be right about everything. Furthermore, even in his faults he is part of the heritage of the Dominican Order, which like any Order has shame as well as glory, and to hide him away and simply replace him by St Martin would be to pretend he never existed, rather than coming to terms with him. But I still wish it was possible to incorporate in his commemoration, perhaps by an inscription on his statue, that he is commemorated for his virtues and not for his actions against the Jews, which can only be a source of shame and regret to see even a saint behave so misguidedly and destructively, and that such abominable eulogies as those with which E. Michael Jones has bespattered St Vincent are repudiated by his devotees, in the confidence that, as a saint in heaven, St Vincent repudiates them now.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 8, 2012 21:27:47 GMT
A nice little feature of St Kevin's that I noticed recently. The porch/entrance on the north side near the church hall (I don't know if it is open on Sundays but it seems to be closed most of the time) has an inner door with clear glass. Look through it and you see a small handsome stained-glass window (a triptych; one of the side panels is St Vincent de Paul with poor children) which from its appearance seems to come from the Harry Clarke studio - not Harry Clarke himself - he died in the late 20s and this commemorates someone, coincidentally called Clarke, who died in 1933 - but using his designs before they were watered down too much. It's a pity such a gem is in an obscure site, but it's worth looking out for.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 8, 2012 21:58:26 GMT
I went up to St Saviour's again today as it is the feast of St Dominic on the OF calendar and I was curious to see how they marked it. I must say the liturgy was very reverent with some good rousing hymns. It was good to see about 25 Dominicans on the altar, with a good age range. Six are being clothed with the habit next month - I confess I am not familiar enough with the terminology to know whether this means they are the survivors from the 9 novices of a few years back who have completed their initial probation, or whether they are newcomers beginning their novitiate. I will check the Dominican Vocation blog for more details. The sermon was preached by a Franciscan from Merchants' Quay - this is a tradition for the feast of St Dominic to mark the friendship of the two Founders (presumably the Dominicans reciprocate on the Feast of St Francis). The readings emphasised the mission of the preacher (including St Paul to Timothy, "I have fought the good fight" and Jesus declaring the Great Commission) and I certainly think this awareness of the relationship between the readings and the feast of the day is lost when the readings are given in Latin only as is the case with the daily TLM at St Kevin's. (At least the priest announced this morning that it was the feast of St Jean-Marie Vianney; yesterday we were never told whose feast it was, though presumably it was St Cajetan who was commemorated as the priest wore white vestments and the alternative, St Sixtus, was a martyr. In the OF Mass I used to attend near my former residence the priest not only announced whose feast it was but said a few words about him/her, and only now do I realise what a benefit this was.) At St Kevin's we did however have the inestimable blessing of venerating a relic of St Jean Marie Vianney after Mass, and at St Saviour's the congregation were blessed at the end with a relic of St Dominic; it was a great honour to serve the Mass of two such great saints on the same day (though I wonder what my beloved St Bede, with his insistence on calendars being in sync, would have thought of it). The Dominicans ended the Mass with the declaration "Go, and proclaim the gospel" and processed out to a nice rousing hymn in honour of St Dominic (to the same tune as "Lo, He Comes in Clouds Descending" which was the entrance hymn. I stayed on for a few prayers in St Martin's chapel and heard the organ playing various sacred tunes (including "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory", which fitted the occasion admirably - they are fond of the Eucharistic congress hymn for Communion, and "Mine Eyes ..." was played at the end of the Croke Park Mass.) Some Dominicans waited around the doors and engaged in conversation with the people going out. Perhaps this should be in the "religious orders" thread, but it did strike me once again what an imposing building St Saviour's is and how fine the great east windows suit it. It is good to see the spirit of the first Dominicans who came to Dublin in 1224 has not died out. I noticed a couple of other St Kevin's habituals were present. Here are some stimulating thoughts on the feast of St Dominic from the vocations director, Fr Gerard Dunne: irishdominicanvocations.blogspot.ie/2012/08/feast-of-saint-dominic.htmland from someone a bit more distinguished irishdominicanvocations.blogspot.ie/2012/08/pope-benedict-on-feast-of-saint-dominic.html
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Aug 17, 2012 13:39:58 GMT
One important point about St Vincent Ferrer and the non-infallibility of saints regards his long support for the Avignon side in the Great Schism of the West. He was a friend of Pedro de Luna, the Benedict XIII proposed by Avignon following the death of Robert of Geneva/Clement VII (I might have the numerals wrong). People may not realise that the schism split religious orders and the Dominicans, for example, had two Masters General and General Curiae - one in Rome and one in Avignon and Ss Catherine of Siena and Vincent Ferrer found themselves on opposite sides. Though Ireland supported Rome, as England did and Scotland Avignon, there were divided opinions in all these jurisdictions - leading to a siege of the Dominican house in Dublin following its occupation by a prior and community with lay supporters (Dublin Normans all) who favoured the Avignon papacy.
Now if E. Michael Jones can eulogise St Vincent's anti-semitism, someone else can eulogise his schismatic activity.
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Post by hibernicus on Aug 18, 2012 19:42:30 GMT
Actually, the so-called "disputations" between St Vincent and representatives of the Spanish Jews (who were not allowed to argue that Judaism was true, but only to complain if they thought specific Jewish beliefs/practices were being misrepresented) took place at the instigation and in the presence of Papa Luna. They happened in 1413-14, after most of his supporters had defected to the rival antipope elected by the Council of Pisa in an attempt to end the schism (which ended up producing three rival Popes instead of two, since both the Roman and Avignon lines retained significant support) so that part of the motivation of Benedict/de Luna and of St Vincent may have been to bolster support for his papal claims by presenting him as a defender of the faith (which is not incompatible with the view that they thought it was the right thing to do anyway). Interestingly, the Wikipedia entry on Benedict/de Luna says that the restrictions he imposed on Jews living in those parts of Spain which recognised him were relaxed by Pope Martin V after the Schism ended, when a delegation of Jews made representation to him. So Jones is praising restrictions imposed on Jews by someone generally regarded as an antipope, which were subsequently relaxed as excessively harsh by an unquestioned Pope: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Pope_Benedict_XIIIHere is an account of the disputation - it appears to be written from a Jewish perspective, but E. Michael Jones gives a very similar account of the restrictions imposed on the Jewish participants, except that he leans over backwards to justify these restrictions. The entry makes the point that in earlier Jewish-Christian disputes the Jews, while still at a disadvantage, were given more latitude to defend their own beliefs: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Tortosa BTW Donal McCarron's 1981 book THE GREAT SCHISM, which is based on published material rather than original research, has a chapter on the schism in Ireland which states that although the majority followed the English Crown in adhering to the Roman obedience, there was significant support for the Avignon claim among the Gaelic Irish, and rival Avignon bishops maintained a presence in some of the western dioceses.
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