I must say whenever I attend an OF Mass (as I do quite often, though I usually attend the EF) the congregation take "And with your spirit" and the other changes in their stride. I seem to be the one who has most difficulty in remembering the change, for the reason given above.
Christ is the morning star who when the night of this world is past brings to his saints the promise of the light of life and opens everlasting day
Some choice passages with comments: EXTRACT The Congregation for Divine Worship was entrusted with the task of translation by Pope John Paul (now St. John Paul) and continued its work under his successor Pope Benedict. Without any evident research to substantiate its position, the Congregation concluded that current declining church attendance was due in part to the “secular language” of the existing translation [They did not make any such claim about church attendance; the changes refer to the nature of the liturgy and to the fact that the old translation into English was full of inaccuracies - HIB], so it decided that a more “sacred language” was needed in the new translation, and proceeded to act accordingly. The current widely noted “Francis effect” calls into question the validity of that assumption.
The first signs of storms ahead came with the news that we were to return to “and with your spirit” as well as “Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof…” Recently I discovered a 1961 Bridal Missal (prior to Vatican 2) which had the Latin Tridentine Mass with the English translation. There were stunning similarities with the current translation. I also discovered that in the Congregation tasked with the new translation, “you had more chance of finding a needle in a haystack than of identifying one of its senior officials who celebrated Mass in any other rite (than the Tridentine rite)” Also “the final version was signed off by a sub-committee of non-English speakers, after they had made their own ‘improvements’”1 Later a priest friend commented that in his view, English was not the first language of the translators. END OF EXTRACT Note the following points: (1) He assumes continuity with the Tridentine Rite is ipso facto undesirable. (2) HE never refers to the Latin text of the OF Mass, which was the standard from which the translations were supposed to be made, to see if it contains the features he denounces as "Tridentine" (3) Those of you who check the link and read the full text will see that he never argues for his ideas on the basis of merit - he simply quotes some very general principles from the Vatican II document (for example, a reference to "useless repetition" does not necessarily imply all repetition is useless; cf Catherine Pickstock on the "liturgical stammer" - and of course he never mentions the passages calling for the retention of Latin and Gregorian chant) and implies we should all accept his reading of it ex auctoritate. (4) HE objects to "enter under my roof" even though it is actually in the Gospel.
EXTRACT In the new translation we read in the Apostle’s Creed “He descended into Hell” despite the fact that some years back Pope Benedict writing about Limbo said it was never a dogma of the church but a theological proposition. So where did Christ descend into according to Rome? END He can't tell the difference between limbus Patrem and Limbus infantem, and he doesn't bother with the minor point that descendit ad inferos is in the original. And of course he doesn't bother with the First Epistle according to St PEter which refers to Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison before the Resurrection, which is the ultimate source of the relevant clause. Will Fr Mannion take this up with St PEter when he sees him?
EXTRACT [Referring to "and with your spirit" -Hib] 2). In the Greco-Roman world the body was a valueless piece of junk, weighing down the soul. According to one ancient thinker, “The body is a tomb.” Plotinus, the father of Neoplatonism, was ashamed to have had a body. Epictetus, the Greek Stoic philosopher said of himself, “You are a poor soul, burdened with a corpse.” What is beyond question is that Paul in his letters reflects this linguistic and cultural understanding. So today in the 21stcentury, a first century understanding is foisted on the worshipping community. END OF EXTRACT So St Paul is to be disregarded for having a first century sensibility. The Gospels are first century documents, so are they to be junked too? Why does reference to the spirit necessarily imply the body is junk?
EXTRACT The Council of Trent (1547 – 1563) to which we owe the Tridentine Mass took place in a different world. It imposed a single Latin liturgy on the Church, (then a largely European Church) out of fear of heresy and it suppressed many local rich and varied liturgies which were totally orthodox. The laity was largely uneducated and illiterate apart from the upper classes and the very idea of spirituality for lay people was relatively new. The industrial revolution, the growth of cities and mass literacy were undreamed of. Today’s world is radically different. Not only basic education, but also third level education is increasingly within the grasp of many. The emancipation of women in society, (less so in the church) means that today many of the laity and many religious women are more educated than some of the clergy. All of this has fundamental ramifications as to what constitutes a meaningful, dynamic and authentic worshipping community. END Actually, the laity are sufficiently educated to see that Father doesn't know what he's talking about here. The Roman Liturgy was codified at Trent, not created ex nihilo. Local rites of sufficient antiquity were explicitly preserved - as were the Eastern Rites - mass suppression of local rites in favour of the Roman rite was a later phenomenon, and was encouraged by the greater ease with which dubious reformers were able to tamper with local rites.
EXTRACT People today look for more active involvement and participation than in the past. Megachurches in the U.S. are characterized by huge, well-trained choirs, direct input from talented, charismatic speakers and active involvement by the congregation in the worship. African and Latin American worshippers look for smaller groups, active participation in communal singing and dancing and charismatic leadership. All of which indicates that Masses with passive recipients while the priest reads everything he utters are recipes for declining congregations, with the sheep leaving for other pastures or for none with the rise of secular humanism.
The method used at the time of Trent was unquestioned then, but is totally irrelevant in the 21st century. That academics in Rome should have the power today to dictate to laity, clergy and local hierarchies, is totally at variance with the ideals Christ preached and lived in His earthly life and which were practiced in the early Christian communities of the New Testament. Surely hierarchies in the various language groups, in consultation with clergy and laity, ought to be the ones to ultimately determine what is an acceptable method of worship in the contemporary world.
Does Rome really believe that God’s Church only has “Authentic Liturgy” when throughout the world, everybody is mechanically saying the exact same words at the exact same point as dictated by Rome? It would be difficult to justify this understanding of worship by appeal to anything in the New Testament, early Church history, or in any document of Vatican Two. END This makes it all too clear that Fr Mannion is all for horizontal worship over vertical - he sees it as being all about the congregation. The fact that megachurches of the sort he mentions reflect a Protestant Evangelical style of worship and that many of them are notoriously based on shallow emotionalism is below his consideration. This piece strongly suggests that Fr Mannion thinks the congregation should be free to make up the liturgy as they go along, and Fr Joe O'Leary declares in the combox that this is exactly what HE wants.
I like your "fisks" on Fr. Mannion's all-too-predictable whinges about the new translations. O.k., these translation are not perfect, many admit that, but compared to the beige-hued, loosely paraphrased mess that was there before them...
And as for his whining about "hierarchies" and "dictating to laity"; well, just try and push against some of the "orthodoxies" dearly held by people like him and his confreres and you'll soon find out exactly what authoritarianism and hyper-clericalism are like.
No idea what age he is, although I can guess, but his quote "...we were to return to 'and with your spirit'" isn't even accurate. We never said that prior to 2011, as anyone over 50 would know; right from 1965 when the congregation could first respond in English it was "and also with you". Nice way to start your shipwreck of an article, Father: with a proposition that isn't even valid. And boy, does it go rapidly downhill from there.
I'm blessed to be friends with a diocesan priest who's had the courage and persistence to stand up to a rather liberal bishop and fight to establish a rather vibrant Latin Mass community originally at Incarnation in Tampa, now at Epiphany in Tampa. This relatively young priest did his homework BIG TIME. All the proper altar appointments, vestments, practices, protocols, and traditions. He didn't want to have something that was a mere shell of the Latin Mass, he wanted the Catholic heart of the liturgy present, and he's succeeded wonderfully.
margaretann: Is anyone hanging out white and yellow bunting for the Popes visit this year as we did for the last Popes visit.
Apr 1, 2018 15:57:13 GMT
maolsheachlann: I hadn't planned on it but it's a good idea.
Apr 4, 2018 12:52:39 GMT
maolsheachlann: I remember our parish priest complaining about the lack of flags for the Eucharistic Congress.
Apr 4, 2018 12:53:02 GMT
Magus123: I don't know what to believe about Medjegorje now. I was there in 1989. I saw the Priest and 2 of the visionaries. Is it real?
Apr 23, 2018 2:17:30 GMT
Magus123: Please, talk to me.
Apr 23, 2018 2:18:56 GMT
Young Ireland: No Magus, it is not. Anything miraculous happening there is the result of people's faith and not the apparition.
Apr 23, 2018 18:18:29 GMT
i like the nuns: i like nuns
May 19, 2018 19:56:19 GMT
Frank In: Hello
Jul 24, 2018 17:55:53 GMT
Nov 6, 2018 11:04:25 GMT
myholylandartifacts2: Definitely, the seven joys are different devotion. Yesterday I bought a beautiful handmade Rosary from holyland-artifacts.com/collections/frontpage/products/2 blessed in the Holy Sepulchre. The Rosary is mainly use by Roman Catholics while saying s
Nov 9, 2018 11:54:02 GMT
Claritas: Medjugorje ? I leave the visions / visionaries up to the Church. As for Our Lady - She is there. Go and experience the grace for yourself for a week. I was completely skeptical of Medjugorje until I did. It's an indescribably spiritual place.
Nov 17, 2018 2:53:29 GMT
maolsheachlann: Why did you go if you were completely sceptical?
Dec 18, 2018 19:36:25 GMT
woody: Medjugorje is a big hoax!
Dec 25, 2018 15:50:19 GMT
Claritas: It was not my intention to go until a series of events led me there. I'll leave it up to the Church to decide what is and is not a hoax, I can only judge what I personally experienced, and those of others pilgrims I met. My only regret is not going sooner.
Jan 16, 2019 22:58:04 GMT
Claritas: Maria, Regina Pacem, ora pro nobis.
Jan 16, 2019 22:59:12 GMT
Colmcille: Forum is all into politics of the world and mickey measuring instead of any depth of spirituality - wrong focus. No salt or light. Pray and Fast. May God bring blessings to you.
Feb 27, 2019 19:42:56 GMT
maolsheachlann: Well, that is because it is a forum. I suspect everyone who does post here prays and fasts and cultivates a spiritual life. But these are things we agree on, so it doesn't really make for discussion.
Feb 28, 2019 10:18:21 GMT
maolsheachlann: Of course, if you want to take it in a different direction you are welcome to post something.
Feb 28, 2019 13:18:15 GMT
Colmcille: Political nonsense. You don't have to disagree with the depth of Catholic spirituality, lives of the Saints and treasures of the faith in order to discuss them.
Mar 3, 2019 16:48:29 GMT
maolsheachlann: This is why I disabled the shoutbox on the Irish Conservatives Forum. People with substantive contributions to make will do so in the forum.
Mar 4, 2019 13:57:20 GMT