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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 12, 2008 21:08:03 GMT
My understanding is that St. Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy, while quite happy to cooperate with LMSI, is able to staff and resource its activities from among its own members and contacts. And, as far as I am aware, the LMSI has not made any contact with the Society, so far. Well, let's close the debate on that. I am not a spokesman for the LMSI, so there is no point talking to me. You argue effectively for the St Colman's Society, yet don't appear to be a spokesman either. Yet if I want to see who represent the LMSI and wish to contact them, I look up their website, which gives names and contact details. I cannot do the same with the St Colman's Society. So as an outsider, it would appear on the face of it to be much easier for the newer society to approach the older one.
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Post by molagga on Apr 12, 2008 21:49:11 GMT
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Post by molagga on Apr 12, 2008 22:01:46 GMT
Ailiater wrote:
"That's a pity. The traditional movement in Ireland (and overseas) would thrive better if the clergy in this country were won over by persuasion rather than apparently forced into a corner by authorities in the Roman Curia".
I agree that persuasion leading to intellectual conviction is certainly a great desideratum in any circumstances and should certainly be pursued. However, that method should not exclude the possibility of the Christian faithful having recourse to those instruments established by the Church ensure that their rights are vendicated. Where this happens, it not a matter of backing anyone into a corner. It is a matter of common justice which ensures that everyone has what he is entitled to. Unfortunately, in an imperfect world it is necessary to use these means occassionally.
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Post by molagga on Apr 12, 2008 22:06:49 GMT
Alisdir wrote:
"The Holy Father could begin by watching episcopal appointments in this country more closely"
Let us not burden the Holy Father anymore than he already is. It might be helpful for us all to recommend him to God in our daily prayer that he be constantly enlightened by the Holy Ghost and preserved from his enemies.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 14, 2008 14:27:37 GMT
Please note there is yet another Mass added to the growing list of Masses: Daily:Archdiocese of Tuam: St. Patrick's Academy, Islandeady, Castlebar, Co. Mayo. Sundays - 11 am; Saturdays - 9 am; Monday-Friday - 7.30 am. Celebrant: Rev. Father Thomas Cunningham C.S.Sp. Tel.: +353-94-9021782. Website: www.stpatricksacademy.ie/ Archdiocese of Dublin: St. Kevin’s Church, Harrington St., Dublin 8: Sundays & Holy Days on public holidays or Saturdays – 10.30 am; Monday-Friday – 8 am; Saturday – 9 am; Working Holy Days & 1st Fridays – 8 am & 7 pm. Traditional Chaplain: Rev. Father Gerard Deighan, P.C. Tel.: +353-87-2884638; e-mail: latinmass@dublindiocese.ie Website: www.latinmass.dublindiocese.ieWeekly:Diocese of Raphoe: Ss. Conall & Joseph Church, Bruckless, Co. Donegal. Sundays - 12.30 pm. Celebrant: Very Rev. Father Dermot McShane, P.P. Tel.: +353-74-9737015. Contact: Proinnsias O Muireagain, tel.: +353-74-9737307, e-mail: pomuiregain@eircom.net (In doubt due to Fr McShane’s health – please telephone in advance)Archdiocese of Dublin: St. Joseph’s Chapel, Newtownmountkennedy, Co. Wicklow. Saturdays – 11 am. Celebrant: Very Rev. Father Sean Smith, C.C. +353-1-281 9253 E-mail contact: Nick Lowry, brandsmabooks@eircom.netMonthly:Diocese of Kerry: Holy Cross Dominican Priory, Tralee, Co. Kerry. 3rd Sunday - 1.30 pm. Celebrant: Rev. Father John O’Rourke, O.P. Tel.: +353-66-7121135, E-mail contact: Anne Kiely, annekiely31@eircom.netDiocese of Raphoe: St. Brigid's Church, Golan, Co. Donegal. 1st Friday - 7 pm. Celebrant: Rev. Father Kevin Driver, C.C. Tel.: +353-74-9153280 Contact: Proinnsias O Muireagain, tel.: +353-74-9737307, e-mail: pomuiregain@eircom.net Diocese of Cork & Ross: Ss.Peter & Paul's Church, Paul St., Cork. 1st Saturday - 10am. Tel.: +353-21-4276573. www.latinmassireland.orgDiocese of Down & Connor: St. Paul's Church, Falls Road, Belfast BT12 6AB. 1st Saturday – 1pm. Contact: Mrs. Eileen Davey, Tel.: +44-28-90875546. (From Republic of Ireland: 048-90875546), E-mail: p.davey@mac.com www.latinmassireland.orgDiocese of Limerick: St. Patrick's Church, Dublin Road, Limerick. One Sunday a month, as announced - 11.15 am Celebrant: Rev. Father Wulfran Lebocq, ICRSS. Contact: Nestor family. Tel.: +353-61-355120. E-mail: vickynestor@gmail.com www.latinmassireland.orgArchdiocese of Dublin: Sodality of Our Lady, University Church, St. Stephen's Green, Dublin 2. 1st Saturday - 10.30 am. Contact: Thomas Murphy (Prefect). Tel.: +353-45-438312. E-mail: lepanto@catholic.org. Website: http://www.sodality.ie/ Archdiocese of Cashel & Emly: Church of St. Patrick & St. Brigid, Glengoole, Co Tipperary. 1st Thursday – 7 pm. Celebrant: Very Rev John J O'Rourke PP. Tel.: +353- 56-8834128, e-mail: jkfe2325@eircom.netOccasional MassesDiocese of Meath: Church of the Assumption, Batterstown, Co. Meath. Celebrant: Rev. Father Michael Cahill, C.C. Tel.: +353-1-8259267 (E-mail contact: Peadar Laighleis plaighleis@eircom.net) www.latinmassireland.orgDiocese of Raphoe: St. Michael's Church, Creeslough, Co. Donegal. Celebrant: Rev. Father Joseph Briody, C.C. Tel.: +353-74-9138011, e-mail: frbriody@hotmail.comDiocese of Galway, Kilmacduagh & Kilfenora: Contact: John Heneghan. Tel.: +353-93-31273. E-mail: john_heneghan@hotmail.com www.latinmassireland.orgPrivate MassesDiocese of Ferns: The Oratory, Coolcots, Wexford. Sundays - 10.30 pm; Saturdays - 9am; Wednesdays - 6.30 pm; other days - as announced. Celebrant: Rev. Father John Brady C.S.Sp . Tel.: +353-53-9147184, e-mail: frjpbrady@faithapostolate.ie Website: faithapostolate.ie/ Diocese of Killala: Rathduff, Ballina, Co. Mayo. Celebrant: Rev. Father Robert Rutledge. Tel.: +353-96-71377 Diocese of Meath: The Hermitage, Duleek, Co. Meath. Celebrant: Rev Father David Jones, O. Praem. (Hermit). Tel.: +353- 41-9823284 Diocese of Cloyne: St Colman’s Church, Macroom, Co. Cork. Mondays – 7.30 pm. Celebrant: Rev. Father Gabriel Burke, C.C. Tel.: +353-26-41247. Please note this Mass does not occur every Monday evening, so it is necessary to telephone in advance. Father Burke is spiritual adviser to the Munster Chapter of the Latin Mass Society of Ireland, www.latinmassireland.org
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 14, 2008 14:39:10 GMT
As can be seen above, the list of Masses is expanding. If there is a single influential factor there, it is the work of the LMSI. While not responsible for everything, they assist in cases where they are not responsible for the Mass - such as in Tralee and in Newtownmountkennedy. And the Cloyne priest who offers the Mass in Macroom is involved with the LMSI.
I checked the link to the St Colman's Society via the Canadian New Liturgical Movement blog, found one contact person listed for whom neither her actual name nor position within the society was given. Can Molagga do better?
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Post by molagga on Apr 14, 2008 15:43:35 GMT
;D Alisdir let's not go verbis ad verbera!
All I gave were the CONTACT details for St. Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy not a committee prospectus.
As for web-pages, just be a little patient, I understand that a state of the art one is being prepared and it will have all the details you could wish to have about the liturgy of the Western Rite. Indeed, the Society may include a co-opertion section and put in a link to the LMSI.
As to the contact person mentioned in the Conference brochure, all I have to say is that the entry represents the lady's correct style and title - I am sure she cannot be faulted for not having posted the same in Irish which would be different.
We will keep you updated on the web-page and as soon as possible we will let you have the date of the web-launch.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 15, 2008 9:31:39 GMT
You are correct to say the information on Mrs Pender is correct and quite sufficient for something like booking a conference. But from the point of view of doing business together, it is preferable to be a lot more open.
If the St Colman's Society wish to do business exclusively through English, they have the same right in this matter as Pobal na hEireann have to operate exclusively through Irish. But it is a point of principle with the LMSI, which identifies itself as Cumann an Aifrinn Laidinigh to operate bilingually and some of the officers prefer to use their names in Irish, as I do. A further officer of the LMSI alternates between the two. Many individuals on this island and its offshore islands chose to do the same, and indeed the presence of a weak indiginous language itself constitutes an argument against liturgy in the vernacular, which in practice favours widely spoken languages and their cultures, which someone to the left of centre would point out are usually the languages of imperial powers.
That, alas, is off the topic. To return to the original point, there are a number of organisations who are self-described traditionalist organisations - the LMSI (president - Peadar Laighleis), Ecclesia Dei Ireland (EDI - chairman - Vera Brady), Pobal na hEireann (PE - leader, Sean Mac Eochaidh), Juventutem Ireland (JI - acting president, Ciaran McArdle), St Conleth's Catholic Heritage Society (in Kildare - I think Thomas Murphy is leading this), and the CU branch of the Sodality of Our Lady (Prefect - Thomas Murphy). I believe there is also a Juventutem Dublin and a Confraternity of Young Catholic Adults - as I am unclear of their current status, I am unable to give further details). Then there is is the St Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy which is not a declared traditional organisation and I am unable to quote an individual as head of the body or even give the title the person uses.
Now, the real intention I had in begining this discussion was not to initiate a debate about the LMSI and St Colman's Society, but rather how each of the groups may come together to form a common purpose. It is not good for any group to ignore the LMSI for the simple reason it has a structure and a programme that runs through more Irish dioceses than any others, so any of the other bodies are likely to run into them sooner or later. I don't need to tell Molagga or anyone else that it can be counterproductive to have two competing groups in a similar area.
Of course, it is not just geographic. JI set out to focus on youth activities. I am unaware of what they actually do, but I know the LMSI run a couple of Paris-Chartres inspired walking pilgrimages which are focussed on youth and I have heard LMSI people ask where are JI? The Sodality of Our Lady has a more spiritual focus than the other groups and I think the others would defer to them in the matter of organising retreats and other occasions like that. PE is a political party - I think most other traditionalists would question the wisdom of combining pro-traditional Mass activity with a political programme however worthy (though restoring the Irish language and the ancient High Kingship are major planks on the PE platform).
With the St Colman's group - firstly, they could say to other traditionalists who they are and what they are about. If they want to be an Irish equivalent of CIEL and run conferences - brilliant. Nobody else is doing that. But if they want to repeat what others are already doing, especially by introducing a level of aggression into the discourse (sorry Molagga - I may be unfairly interpreting your stress on legal rights. It is a thing that even in secular life I shy away from - eg, I am very unpopular among a lot of Gaeilgeoirí because I emphasise trying to be diplomatic and persuasive rather than standing on the article of Bunreacht na hEireann which gives Irish the precedence over English and I view Canon Law in a very similar way), well then I wonder if other trads will welcome this. True, Summorum Pontificum brought about a new atmosphere, but the rumours concerning Mgr Ranjith's departure from the Congregation of Divine Worship may define this atmoshere in a different way. Anyway, I think a good solicitor will interpret the law in the most pessimistic way for his client rather than the opposite. Canon law may be different, but we can only precede in the same way until actually see some hard precedent.
I should say that I don't believe that this discussion should confine itself to groups either. How for example do the groups react to the established apostolates? The Cork, Limerick and Belfast Masses are LMSI, as are anything in Galway and Batterstown in Meath and there is an LMSI imput into Bruckless, Tralee and Newtownmountkennedy. The LMSI are also in contact with Fathers Briody and Driver in Donegal. And Father Burke in Macroom. But the Dublin Chaplaincy and St Patrick's Academy, Islandeady both stand outside any of the groups, as does Father Brady in Wexford and lately the new Mass in Tipperary. What I am talking about and what I want everyone else to talk about is to see the traditionalist chapels and groups as a sort of network, something bound loosely like a confederation - not a cast iron framework with a three line whip.
So, this is an idea of what I mean by co-operation among trads.
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Post by molagga on Apr 15, 2008 15:11:33 GMT
Alisdir! I have no doubt whatsoever that the LMSI does good work and I have no doubt that St. Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy, in so far as it can, is more than than willing to help it promote the Latin liturgy where ever it can. The same cordiality would mark the Society's attitude to any of the other bodies you mention in their efforts to promote Catholic liturgy. The objective of mutual cooperation can be met either informally or formally. It may or may not require structures and it would depend on each group to determine the means and the extent they may wish to cooperate in such a scenario. On this, one thing is clear: the Liturgy is the private preserve of no organisation -it belongs to the Church. That, I think, is one of the great benefits of the Motu Proprio. Once this prinicple is accepted, then a whole range of approaches and angles opens up. These can be filled by a miriad of organisations -each with its own particular charism. As with St. Paul's image of the body, all of these charisms are intended to work together for the greater glory of God. I am aware that the LMSI has expressed a certain interest in St Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy over the past number of months and in the rather imaginative approach it takes to promoting Catholic liturgy. Here, I am referring to the Mass organised in Cobh Cathedral and to the upcoming Liturgical Conference. There is (and was) nothing whatsoever stopping the LMSI from taking such initiatives if it wants to. They would have the support of the members of St. Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy. The Society would hope that it would have the LMSI's reciprocal support in its activities. As for further information about the Society, there is an e-mail address available ( colman.liturgy@yahoo.co.uk ) and a postal address in the contact details with which I supplied you. Did you by any chance try either of them?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 15, 2008 22:00:33 GMT
My usual habit on lists is to be hyper-critical and so far the only person I have been critical of is Molagga. So now I will rant at the organisations and apostolates I mentioned. Well, maybe not all of them - that would take up too much time. I scarcely need mention the Belfast based political party which chooses to do all its business through Irish. You'll find most of EDI's activity is located convenient to railways to allow Dublin based pensioners avail of the free travel. I am not quite sure of what the Juventutem groups do which is why I asked the question in the first place. The LMSI began life as a firebrand rad trad organisation with the late Michael Davies' backing in about 2000 and neither EDI nor Pobal na hEireann would touch them at the time - now they seem to have really mellowed into a moderate force which invites the questions as to how and why, in particular why some dioceses will not deal with any other group. How did they get to be so respectable, even before Summorum Pontificum? More pertinent is the fact that they try to cover a huge area of ground and may not have the proper resources to sustain the effort. And now there is St Colman's Society. I am wondering though, what is imaginative? The conference is a mirror image of what CIEL have done in Britain and France and some other body are doing in the US. The Mass in St Colman's Cathedral was originally billed on Fr Zuhlsdorf's blog and Shawn Tribe's blog as a solemn pontifical Mass. I mean here to be advocata diaboli (most of my acquaintances reckon me to be in league with him somehow - I am a born trouble maker, which is what I am doing now).
We have heard from the Dublin and Wexford apostolates too, but I would like to hear more about how they are doing. What about St Patrick's in Islandeady - how are they doing and how do they fit in to this picture? If nobody else asks, I do.
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Post by molagga on Apr 15, 2008 23:00:55 GMT
My usual habit on lists is to be hyper-critical and so far the only person I have been critical of is Molagga. So now I will rant at the organisations and apostolates I mentioned. Well, maybe not all of them - that would take up too much time. I scarcely need mention the Belfast based political party which chooses to do all its business through Irish. You'll find most of EDI's activity is located convenient to railways to allow Dublin based pensioners avail of the free travel. I am not quite sure of what the Juventutem groups do which is why I asked the question in the first place. The LMSI began life as a firebrand rad trad organisation with the late Michael Davies' backing in about 2000 and neither EDI nor Pobal na hEireann would touch them at the time - now they seem to have really mellowed into a moderate force which invites the questions as to how and why, in particular why some dioceses will not deal with any other group. How did they get to be so respectable, even before Summorum Pontificum? More pertinent is the fact that they try to cover a huge area of ground and may not have the proper resources to sustain the effort. And now there is St Colman's Society. I am wondering though, what is imaginative? The conference is a mirror image of what CIEL have done in Britain and France and some other body are doing in the US. The Mass in St Colman's Cathedral was originally billed on Fr Zuhlsdorf's blog and Shawn Tribe's blog as a solemn pontifical Mass. I mean here to be advocata diaboli (most of my acquaintances reckon me to be in league with him somehow - I am a born trouble maker, which is what I am doing now). We have heard from the Dublin and Wexford apostolates too, but I would like to hear more about how they are doing. What about St Patrick's in Islandeady - how are they doing and how do they fit in to this picture? If nobody else asks, I do. I am beginning to form the impression that we are dealing here with a crank!
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 16, 2008 8:29:28 GMT
Molagga writes:
I am beginning to form the impression that we are dealing here with a crank!
As I said above, I was writing as advocata diaboli. If an outsider were to look at the Irish traditional scene (and I try to do so as an outsider from time to time), they would say it is tiny. Remember that the thriving traditional movements in France and the US are still small minorities of the practicing Catholic populations there. Ireland is small in comparison to places like England and Wales; and Germany.
So, the outsider will asked why does the Irish trad scene have so many groups. And specifically for St Colman's Society, why do we need one more? If there was nothing happening in Cloyne, that would be a reason. The only priest who says the traditional Mass openly in Cloyne (no disrespect to the other five reported priests who say it privately) is in the LMSI and they are active in the neighbouring Cork and Ross diocese, both in the city and west Cork. OK, there is the intellectual side of St Colman's Society mission, but don't you think a venue such as St Patrick's College, Maynooth might be more suitable for such a function? Even in Munster the former seminaries in Thurles and Waterford are probably better. I am assuming the Abbot of Glenstall would not let such an affair in there in a million years, which is a pity given that no venue could be more appropriate for a liturgical conference than a Benedictine Abbey.
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Post by molagga on Apr 16, 2008 10:16:00 GMT
While Cork should not be discounted as a centre of Catholic intellectual ferment, your suggestions of Maynooth, Thurlles, Waterford and Glenstall could well be looked into as future possibilities.
BTW: I presume you intended "advocatus diaboli". Visne latine prosequi?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Apr 18, 2008 11:55:39 GMT
Come on, Molagga, I never criticised your mis-citation of the indult Quattuor abhinc annos as Vicesimus Quintus Annus on another thread, or your imaginative spellings of my name. But none of that. I set up the thread to start a debate about co-operation among traditionalists. You have used it to eulogise the St Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy, though early in the thread you said they were neither traditionalist nor reform of the reform. Fine, that's not an issue, but if that is the case the Society is outside the debate. Even if we look at the issue broadly and regard the Society as traditionalist (as I am prepared to do), your only suggestion regarding the topic of the thread was to the effect that it was up to the LMSI to contact the St Colman's Society. This thread ought to move beyond that - do you have anything better?
BTW - if both the LMSI in the Cork & Ross/Cloyne/Kerry dioceses (which includes Millstreet, if I am not mistaken - we are talking 'Cork Region' here) and the St Colman's Society are reading, they ought to look out for Father Nicholas Gruner's associate, Father (?) Paul Kramer - rumour has it he is currently based in Mallow and he is planning a 'Fatima Rosary Rally' in Ballincollig. I don't believe the Gruner movement is something responsible trad organisations should get themselves involved in.
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Post by molagga on Apr 18, 2008 18:10:22 GMT
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