Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 14, 2011 20:30:51 GMT
Your prayers are requested for the repose of the soul of the Right Rev Father Archimandrite Serge Keleher, priest in charge of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in Ireland who died on Friday 11 November.
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Nov 25, 2011 21:37:29 GMT
I am going to answer Hibernicus'es question, but first let me make a distinction.
When Eastern Rite is mentioned in a Catholic forum, one assumes this to mean Eastern Rite Catholics. There are nearly two dozen of these if not more. The most organised in Ireland are the Byzantine Rite or Greek-Catholics, specifically the Ukrainian Greek-Catholics. Since the death of Mgr Keleher two weeks ago, they are without a priest, but I spoke to bishop (there is a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Apostolic Visitor for Ireland: Bishop Hlib Lonchya) and he said there is a priest in preparation and that he is also prepared to grant bi-ritual faculties to Irish priests in good standing who are in a position to celebrate the Divine Liturgy. There are other Eastern Catholics in Ireland - Syro-Malabarese from India who have liturgies from time to time; Lebanese Maronites, but I am not sure if they have liturgies; Armenian Catholics, who I am pretty sure don't have liturgies; Coptic Catholics, who I am also pretty sure don't have liturgies.
Secondly, there are those called Eastern Orthodox, who are usually in communion with Constantinople or Moscow and who accept the first seven oecumenical councils. There is some information here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland The largest of these is the Russian Orthodox Church - In Dublin that is at Mount Jerome cemetery. There are also Roumanian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox and Georgian Orthodox in organised churches. I am aware of Serbian and Bulgarian Orthodox too, but I don't know how many and I am not sure they have churches. More eccentrically, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (a tsarist church which set up independently of the Moscow Patriarchate after the revolution) have a base in Ireland in Stradbaly, Co Laois.
Finally, there are the Oriental Orthodox Churches. These crucially do not accept the Council of Chalcedon. In Ireland we have both Egyptian and Ethiopian Copts (and the Ethiopian Copts worship in Synge St CBS which is right beside St Kevin's) and we have the Anthiochene Orthodox.
I always thought Terence Flanagan was an FG TD who plagiarised speeches, but no doubt the Coptic priest of the same name is an ex-Catholic. He has company - Father Godfrey O'Donnell in the Romanian Orthodox Church is an ex-Jesuit; Fr David Lonergan in the Anthiochene Orthodox was a theology graduate from the Milltown Institute. There could well be more - I remember an ex-soldier who served in Cyprus converted to Greek Orthodoxy and was preparing for ordination in the Greek Orthodox church. These churches also have active diaconates and a number of Irish ex-Catholics serve in this capacity too.
I recently attended a Syro-malabar Mass in the SMA church in the suburbs of Cork. It was beautiful. Sung from beginning to end. But I wondered has this Mass being 'reformed' in the last forty years. Lay readers read the readings and the priest faced towards the people so I suppose that it has been. One of the best features of the Mass was that it appeared that the choir were singing the liturgy not singing *at* the liturgy.
Here's a historical curiosity - apparently some Eastern Orthodox regard King Harold Godwinson (of arrow in the eye fame) as an Orthodox martyr, apparently because the Pope supported William the Conqueror and because Harold lived at the time of the Great Schism, if he was even aware of it. (The Orthodox have a habit of regarding kings killed during their reigns as martyrs; apparently they see such deaths as a consequence of accepting the vocation of a ruler. Hence the veneration ofTsar Nicholas II of Russia as a martyr.)
Here's a historical curiosity - apparently some Eastern Orthodox regard King Harold Godwinson (of arrow in the eye fame) as an Orthodox martyr, apparently because the Pope supported William the Conqueror and because Harold lived at the time of the Great Schism, if he was even aware of it. (The Orthodox have a habit of regarding kings killed during their reigns as martyrs; apparently they see such deaths as a consequence of accepting the vocation of a ruler. Hence the veneration of Nicholas II as a martyr.)
Interesting - communications were a lot better in the 11th century than we appreciate, but the schism of 1054 was neither significant nor momentous at the time - the sack of Constantinople in 1204 (which never should have happened) and the Latin Empire was what destroyed the unity of the Church (oh, and the Sultan ensured bishops appointed in the East after 1453 were not sympathetic to the Council of Florence).
However, I never understood why St Olaf of Norway was canonised - his martyrdom seems very tenuous.
www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=19978542&postID=1029214455591742677 Interesting discussion on Rorate caeli about the Russian Greek Catholic Church (i.e. Russian, not Ukrainian - I assumed this meant the Ukrainians at first but this is a separate body). One of the posters signs himself "Irish Melkite" - which probably means Irish-American, though this is not clear - and was a contact of the late Archimandrite Serge Kelleher.
Christ is the morning star who when the night of this world is past brings to his saints the promise of the light of life and opens everlasting day
In light of the Christmas bombings in Nigeria I found this piece to be pertinent. I was surprised to read of Muslim elders protecting the Christians, internet support through Facebook by Egyptians, a Hindu in the House of Lords speaking up, Chief Rabbi speaking out, the German government stepping in for the Church in Turkey (looking to join the EU..). Yet we hear zilch in this country, the "creeping regulations against religious minorities" is not just an overseas issue. Nevertheless, we can go to Mass without risking becoming a martyr.. This piece was published on December 23rd by the way, I suppose we can include Africa in this too now. Lord have mercy on the victims of those cowardly bombers.
William Hague has transformed the Foreign Office in his 18 months in charge. He inherited a system hardwired with the dynsfunctionality of the Labour years, and it’s almost fixed. But not quite. It has not yet woken up to the wave of what can only be called ‘religious cleansing’ in the Middle East, which I look at in my Telegraph column today. Here’s a rundown of my main points.
1) The killing has begun, and could get worse. In Iraq, about two thirds of its 1.4 million Christians have now fled — being firebombed by the jihadis. Last year, gunmen entered a Baghdad church and killed 58 parishioners. To go to church in Iraq, which Christians have been doing for two millennia, now means risking your life. Baghdad’s Jewish community has now been almost eliminated — by some estimates, half a dozen remain. Tunisia’s Arab Spring has also let the jihadis loose: a Polish priest was executed recently, and they’re turning on its ancient Jewish community too. This has spread to Egypt, where Coptic Christians have lived in peace with Muslims for generations — until now, with 25 dead in October. Syria’s 1.5 Christians have suffered from the Assad regime as much as anyone, but they now pray for its survival, fearing it will be replaced by Islamic fundamentalists who will start persecution in earnest.
2) The Arab Spring has unleashed the demon. The last few years have seen the toppling of a long list of dictators: with the aid of Western military (Iraq, Libya) or Arab Spring revolutions (Egypt, Tunisia and maybe Syria). For all their evil, these secular tyrants treated victims equally whether they wore the cross, skullcap or niqab. But there has been no Vaclav Havel figure, no Walesa, to fill the post-revolutionary void. The situation has developed almost exactly along the lines that John R Bradley predicted in his Spectator cover story in February. Power has gone not to the most popular, but the best-organised. This means the hardline Salafis, who follow the same mutant strain of Sunni Islam as al-Qaeda.
3) This is a war within Islam. The situation is more complex than the Muslim vs Christian ‘clash of civilizations’ narrative to which we’re accustomed. The majority of Muslims are appalled at these Christian pogroms. After the Egyptian Copts were attacked last year, Muslim elders sat in the pews when they celebrated their (January) Christmas, acting as human shields. Egyptians changed their Facebook picture to a new logo — the crescent and the cross — to show unity. But the Facebook crowd have lost power to the Holy book crowd: the hardline Islamists are filling the void. The Muslim Brotherhood is well on its way to a new constitution which looks terrifyingly similar to that of Iran.
4) And a war Britain still perceives only dimly. The risk is that Foreign Office is so obsessed about the possibility of war between countries that it neglects war within countries. The Salafists don’t really care about running a government, they want to control society — as the Wahhabis do in Saudi Arabia. They very much want to wage war, but their enemy doesn’t lie over a border. Their enemy is in a church, synagogue or Shia Muslim mosque. And their formula for war is a pretty time-tested one. After regime change, you assassinate a leader or blow up a shrine. Then countries head to civil war between communities who had got along fine for generations (Rwanda, the Balkans) and ending in bloody partition (Cyprus and India).
5) Sectarian war often follows regime change. When the Shia Mosque was blown up in Kabul earlier this month, suspicion immediately fell on the Taleban. The best analysis you’ll read is Ahmed Rashid’s verdict in The Spectator. The Taleban, he said, have buried the hatchet with the Shia — they’re posing as a national unity government. They have dumped al-Qaeda, which is annoyed and wants back in. For al-Qaeda, promoting a religious civil war in Afghanistan is the best way of creating the sort of chaos they can exploit, as they did in Iraq.
Religious sectarianism is not part of a wooly equalities agenda. This is the battle line along which most wars of the next couple of decades may well be fought. The Foreign Office failed to take this seriously enough in the former Yugoslavia, and only worked out what was happening when it was too late. Now, too, there is only dim recognition of the fact that we may see religious cleansing in the Middle East as we saw ethnic cleansing in the Balkans.
6) The Foreign Office is not pulling its weight. When asked, ministers condemn discrimination and attacks on Christians — especially the ones in Egypt. David Cameron did so in PMQs, adding that he also deplores attacks on homosexuals. But how committed is Britain to protecting freedom of religion in general? The best primer you’ll read on this is the text of a Lords debate from a fortnight ago, led by Rowan Williams (who has shown exemplary leadership on this, especially with his visit to Zimbabwe). The most telling anecdote came from John Patten. He wrote to the Foreign Office asking if they’d help Anglicans who found it difficult to worship in Turkey:
‘Would the Government do anything to help them? The answer was no; they would not approach the Turkish Government to ask, “Please can you ease up a bit? Please can they just worship in this hall and then go on quietly to worship in some other place?” Then, however — and I end on this point — a bombshell. My Anglican correspondent, a clergyman in orders who spends half the year helping this necessarily furtive community, said that the German Roman Catholic community had suffered the same problems but then a much more muscular German Government had intervened directly with the Turks to promote a full-on, properly recognised German RC priest to worship and to celebrate in at least semi-public places.’
Hague will not want to start another crusade, and you can certainly argue that if Britain piled in behind the Christians it would only add to the idea of them being a Western-backed foreign contagion. But what he can do is protect all minorities, wherever he can. If religious cleansing is incubated by creeping regulations against religious minorities, then Britain can confront these illiberal restrictions head-on. Britain can deny foreign aid to any country that does not observe Article 18 of the UN Human Rights charter, the FCO can publish its own yearbook of religious freedom to show how seriously it takes the subject. And it should do so as a form of conflict prevention.
CoffeeHousers will differ on how seriously we should take this. I’ll sign off with two interventions in the Lords Debate, the first from Lord Popat who fled Idi Amin in 1971:
‘Speaking not just as a Hindu but as someone who has a deep affection for the Christian faith, I can put my hand on my heart and say that this is not just a Christian issue but an issue for humanity. It is about fighting for and protecting the rights of minorities. It is about the right to preserve freedom of worship. These are essential principles which hold the very meaning of democracy. Furthermore, these are values that we should seek to uphold as part of our foreign policy.’ And the Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks:
’It was Martin Luther King who said “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends”. That is why I felt that I could not be silent today. As a Jew in Christian Britain, I know how much I, my late parents and, indeed, the whole British Jewish community owe to this great Christian nation, which gave us the right and the freedom to live our faith without fear. Shall we not therefore as Jews stand up for the right of Christians in other parts of the world to live their faith without fear?’
Very good, Louise. It's really tragic how little attention Christians in the west are paying to the predicament of eastern Christians. (I am not of course saying that we should not be concerned for non-Christians, but the Christians are our brethren.) As someone who supported the American invasion of Iraq because I thought they would handle the place better than they did, the fate of the Iraqi Christians fills me with guilt and regret. I suspect that something very nasty is going to happen in Syria when/if the Assad regime falls. Because the Assads come from a minority Islamic sect (so heterodox many Muslims deny it is really Islamic at all) he recruits support from other minorities to strengthen his position against the Sunni majority, and Christians hold high positions in the regime (I believe the current Army commander is a Christian). Given the grisly nature and long list of crimes committed by the Assads, I can't say that I wish the regime to survive - but there may be terrible consequences when it falls, and we should be prepared for that. William Dalrymple's FROM THE HOLY MOUNTAIN is a very useful introduction to the current situation of the Christian communities in the Eastern Mediterranean. (I should note that he is very hostile to Israel - he has some very strong comment on how they demolish Christian historic sites, mistreat the Arab population - including Christians etc) but that does not mean he should be dismissed as unreliable).
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 9, 2012 14:37:24 GMT
Just a word about Archbishop Alencherry. I don't know if you recall a description of an Indian Syro-Malabarese bishop reciting the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic (ie, its original language) at Benediction on Pentecost Sunday evening at the Paris-Chartres pilgrimage camp - it was reported in the Brandsma Review maybe 10 years ago.
That's an interesting detail and one which seems to have been entirely overlooked by the Chicken Littles at Rorate Caeli, who have been complaining that the new cardinals are insufficiently tradition-friendly. Perhaps being sat on by larger bodies within the Church makes some easterners more sympathetic to trads in a similar position. A couple of years back I noted a report by Damien Thompson that the Latin-rite bishops in England and Wales were pressurising Syro-Malabars there to water down their own practices and conform to those favoured by the English bishops - an outrageous display of ignorance, intolerance and conformism IMHO, and particularly scandalous as it constitutes interference with the legitimate practices of a recognised Rite of the Church. Here's hoping Major-Archbishop Alencherry's nomination as a cardinal (I do not say "elevation", given the status of Patriarchs and Major-Archbishops) may help to diminish this sort of bullying.
Last Edit: Jan 10, 2012 22:03:59 GMT by hibernicus
Christ is the morning star who when the night of this world is past brings to his saints the promise of the light of life and opens everlasting day
From Eastern Christians in communion with Rome to those who are not; the IRISH TIMES had a nice little report a day or two ago of the Egyptian Copts celebrating Christmas by their calendar (i.e. on 6-7 January) at their main church in Bray. The IRISH TIMES has so many offences on its record it's nice to be able to praise them for something.
margaretann: Is anyone hanging out white and yellow bunting for the Popes visit this year as we did for the last Popes visit.
Apr 1, 2018 15:57:13 GMT
maolsheachlann: I hadn't planned on it but it's a good idea.
Apr 4, 2018 12:52:39 GMT
maolsheachlann: I remember our parish priest complaining about the lack of flags for the Eucharistic Congress.
Apr 4, 2018 12:53:02 GMT
Magus123: I don't know what to believe about Medjegorje now. I was there in 1989. I saw the Priest and 2 of the visionaries. Is it real?
Apr 23, 2018 2:17:30 GMT
Magus123: Please, talk to me.
Apr 23, 2018 2:18:56 GMT
Young Ireland: No Magus, it is not. Anything miraculous happening there is the result of people's faith and not the apparition.
Apr 23, 2018 18:18:29 GMT
i like the nuns: i like nuns
May 19, 2018 19:56:19 GMT
Frank In: Hello
Jul 24, 2018 17:55:53 GMT
Nov 6, 2018 11:04:25 GMT
myholylandartifacts2: Definitely, the seven joys are different devotion. Yesterday I bought a beautiful handmade Rosary from holyland-artifacts.com/collections/frontpage/products/2 blessed in the Holy Sepulchre. The Rosary is mainly use by Roman Catholics while saying s
Nov 9, 2018 11:54:02 GMT
Claritas: Medjugorje ? I leave the visions / visionaries up to the Church. As for Our Lady - She is there. Go and experience the grace for yourself for a week. I was completely skeptical of Medjugorje until I did. It's an indescribably spiritual place.
Nov 17, 2018 2:53:29 GMT
maolsheachlann: Why did you go if you were completely sceptical?
Dec 18, 2018 19:36:25 GMT
woody: Medjugorje is a big hoax!
Dec 25, 2018 15:50:19 GMT
Claritas: It was not my intention to go until a series of events led me there. I'll leave it up to the Church to decide what is and is not a hoax, I can only judge what I personally experienced, and those of others pilgrims I met. My only regret is not going sooner.
Jan 16, 2019 22:58:04 GMT
Claritas: Maria, Regina Pacem, ora pro nobis.
Jan 16, 2019 22:59:12 GMT
Colmcille: Forum is all into politics of the world and mickey measuring instead of any depth of spirituality - wrong focus. No salt or light. Pray and Fast. May God bring blessings to you.
Feb 27, 2019 19:42:56 GMT
maolsheachlann: Well, that is because it is a forum. I suspect everyone who does post here prays and fasts and cultivates a spiritual life. But these are things we agree on, so it doesn't really make for discussion.
Feb 28, 2019 10:18:21 GMT
maolsheachlann: Of course, if you want to take it in a different direction you are welcome to post something.
Feb 28, 2019 13:18:15 GMT
Colmcille: Political nonsense. You don't have to disagree with the depth of Catholic spirituality, lives of the Saints and treasures of the faith in order to discuss them.
Mar 3, 2019 16:48:29 GMT
maolsheachlann: This is why I disabled the shoutbox on the Irish Conservatives Forum. People with substantive contributions to make will do so in the forum.
Mar 4, 2019 13:57:20 GMT