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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Mar 1, 2009 23:54:24 GMT
And what about this ? " Seder Meal. For the last couple of years we have got together with the Church of Ireland community for a celebration of the Jewish Seder Meal. We will continue this custom this year. .... " Is that kind of celebration authorised from a Catholic religious community ? what is wrong with such a meal? it sounds to me like an interesting get together with other christians. Nothing at all wrong with it in so far as it is a gesture of friendship towards other Christians, though as Hibernicus has pointed out it might be insulting to Jews who think it patronises them — if Jews had a "Mass" as an ecumenical gesture we might not be too happy about it. But the danger with gestures like these is that they can distract people from the central and supreme importance of the Mass and lead them to believe that other gatherings could be just as good.
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Post by Noelfitz on Mar 2, 2009 17:02:22 GMT
I would prefer to hear positive news rather than negative news. We have too much of the latter recently.
Today I was in Dalkey and there was exposition on the main altar of the church, which was really beautiful, with flowers, candles, good lighting and a very impressive monstrance.
It really was encouraging to see such a wonderful expression of faith and to see that there were quite a number of people praying in the middle of the morning.
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Post by guillaume on Mar 2, 2009 17:16:44 GMT
I would prefer to hear positive news rather than negative news. We have too much of the latter recently. Today I was in Dalkey and there was exposition on the main altar of the church, which was really beautiful, with flowers, candles, good lighting and a very impressive monstrance. It really was encouraging to see such a wonderful expression of faith and to see that there were quite a number of people praying in the middle of the morning. The problem is not to hear "positive" news, but to hear the Truth. Not to hear something which sounds "nice" to our ears, but something which contribute to the very First Commandment, to love God first via the liturgy. Reform of the actual liturgy is the very will of the Pope, Benedict the XVI. Those "clowns" masses, those heresies, those guitars and drums "worship", those women looking after the Eucharist, those girls serving mass, those numerous lack of reverence during the new mass MUST STOP ! must be end. Or you join the protestants.
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Post by guillaume on Mar 2, 2009 17:25:36 GMT
what is wrong with such a meal? it sounds to me like an interesting get together with other christians. Nothing at all wrong with it in so far as it is a gesture of friendship towards other Christians, though as Hibernicus has pointed out it might be insulting to Jews who think it patronises them — if Jews had a "Mass" as an ecumenical gesture we might not be too happy about it. But the danger with gestures like these is that they can distract people from the central and supreme importance of the Mass and lead them to believe that other gatherings could be just as good. Well, I do not know, but since when the Catholic Church, is celebrating "passover" ? Since when the CC is allowed to concelebrate with Anglican a Jewish feast This will be reported to the Apostolic Nuncio in Dublin. Will see.
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myk
New Member
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Post by myk on Mar 3, 2009 5:16:40 GMT
Nothing at all wrong with it in so far as it is a gesture of friendship towards other Christians, though as Hibernicus has pointed out it might be insulting to Jews who think it patronises them — if Jews had a "Mass" as an ecumenical gesture we might not be too happy about it. But the danger with gestures like these is that they can distract people from the central and supreme importance of the Mass and lead them to believe that other gatherings could be just as good. Well, I do not know, but since when the Catholic Church, is celebrating "passover" ? Since when the CC is allowed to concelebrate with Anglican a Jewish feast This will be reported to the Apostolic Nuncio in Dublin. Will see. It would appear to me to be primarily a social occasion rather than a religious celebration. I think you are over reacting. I would suggest that you get in touch with the group involved or even attend the event rather than reporting it based on limited information.
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Post by Noelfitz on Mar 3, 2009 10:23:08 GMT
Guillaume,
You wrote: "those numerous lack of reverence during the new mass MUST STOP ! must be end. Or you join the protestants."
This is a bit over the top. A Mass is a Mass even if it is not offered with proper dignity.
When I wrote about the wonderful exposition in Dalkey. I was telling the truth. Many parish churches now have exposaition. It is a tremendous grace.
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myk
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Post by myk on Mar 3, 2009 12:00:22 GMT
I would prefer to hear positive news rather than negative news. We have too much of the latter recently. Today I was in Dalkey and there was exposition on the main altar of the church, which was really beautiful, with flowers, candles, good lighting and a very impressive monstrance. It really was encouraging to see such a wonderful expression of faith and to see that there were quite a number of people praying in the middle of the morning. The problem is not to hear "positive" news, but to hear the Truth. Not to hear something which sounds "nice" to our ears, but something which contribute to the very First Commandment, to love God first via the liturgy. Reform of the actual liturgy is the very will of the Pope, Benedict the XVI. Those "clowns" masses, those heresies, those guitars and drums "worship", those women looking after the Eucharist, those girls serving mass, those numerous lack of reverence during the new mass MUST STOP ! must be end. Or you join the protestants. It seems to me that you have an exceedingly narrow view of the Catholic Mass. While I respect that most of the active posters on this have a strong preference for Latin Mass, I'm not sure that you, Guillaume, recognise the beauty in the way the majority of Catholic Masses are celebrated in Ireland.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Mar 3, 2009 12:11:34 GMT
The Augustinians in Drogheda are worse. I had the unhappy experience of Sunday Mass with fourteen-year-old dancing girls in leotards. Pervert heaven. The Augustinians in Galway renovated their church recently. A project made and financed by lay people. Result : Before : After : or The project cost nearly 4 000 000 Euros ! You can visit the Church in 360 degree and even make some comments on their messages board : augustinians.ie/galway/Church/Renovation.htm And what about this ? " Seder Meal. For the last couple of years we have got together with the Church of Ireland community for a celebration of the Jewish Seder Meal. We will continue this custom this year. We have yet to decide on a date, but it will probably take place in the week prior to Holy Week. (Palm Sunday falls on April 5th). As you know, the Seder Meal is the Jewish celebration of the liberation of their ancestors from slavery in Egypt, the Exodus. " Is that kind of celebration authorised from a Catholic religious community ? Nothing to do with Fr Iggy: the guy responsible is Rev Fr Richard Lyng OSA, who goes by the name Fr Dick Lyng himself and is known as 'Ding-a-ling' to everybody else. I spent the week-end in Galway, so I became acquainted with a bit of Church gossip. For example, long before Fr Iggy's antics, a Galway diocesan priest, a curate in one of the city parishes, attended a service conducted by Rev Patrick Towers in St Nicholas Collegiate Church. Fr Galwegian (as I will call him), received "communion" at Mr Towers' hand and then, vested as he was in an alb and stole, distributed it to the congregation. Archbishop Walton Empey, who was a guest preacher, was dumbstruck.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Mar 12, 2009 12:54:21 GMT
Nothing to do with Fr Iggy: the guy responsible is Rev Fr Richard Lyng OSA, who goes by the name Fr Dick Lyng himself and is known as 'Ding-a-ling' to everybody else. I spent the week-end in Galway, so I became acquainted with a bit of Church gossip. For example, long before Fr Iggy's antics, a Galway diocesan priest, a curate in one of the city parishes, attended a service conducted by Rev Patrick Towers in St Nicholas Collegiate Church. Fr Galwegian (as I will call him), received "communion" at Mr Towers' hand and then, vested as he was in an alb and stole, distributed it to the congregation. Archbishop Walton Empey, who was a guest preacher, was dumbstruck. This is big news. Care to tell us who Fr Galwegian is?
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 3, 2009 10:17:09 GMT
Fr. Iggy int he news again from the IRISH TIMES, 24 August. What is striking is not the call for a national day of atonement for the child abuse scandals, which is unobjectionable in itself, but the view that this is incompatible with celebrating the anniversary of Pope John Paul's visit to Ireland, and indeed the denunciation ofthe visit itself. What exactly does he mean when he speaks of the visit as "the last sting of a dying wasp"? Does he think the visit had no positive aspect at all? www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0824/1224253137915.htmlSUNDAY SEPTEMBER 27th should be designated as a day of atonement by the Catholic Church in Ireland for abuse committed against the innocent, the Humbert School was told at the weekend. Drogheda-based Augustinian priest Fr Iggy O’Donovan noted that celebrations were being planned for that day to mark the 30th anniversary of the arrival in Ireland of the late pope John Paul II. “Is it not more appropriate that we designate that Sunday as a day of atonement,” he asked. “Surely it would make more sense than engaging in a triumphalist nostalgic exercise commemorating what has turned out to be the last sting of a dying wasp,” he said... Fr O’Donovan explained that he belonged to a church that as an institution “rarely if ever admits to having been wrong or to having inflicted harm on people”. He wondered “how can you reform an institution which, though it constantly speaks of personal sin, cannot bring itself to admit, and repent of institutional sin?”
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 10, 2009 14:10:40 GMT
When was the last time anyone heard Father O'Donovan take a position which would be unpopular with the mass media rather than popular?
I remember after he clashed with Father David O'Hanlon on the Late, Late Show, he came on Vincent Browne's radio show and said he would be prepared to change his views, but David O'Hanlon would not be prepared to change his.
The give away is in terms of views. The difference between Fathers O'Donovan was there to represent his view while enjoying the status and entitlements of a Catholic priest. Notwithstanding the difference between a religious and diocesan priest, Father O'Hanlon was there as a Catholic priest to represent not his views, but the Church'es views. I could say that Father O'Donovan enjoys a privilege that most of us don't. I can't say I am totally behind what my employer stands for, but I am not going to go on the national airwaves to broadcast the points of opposition to him. Thankfully, no issue of conscience comes up - but if an issue of conscience did emerge, I would have to seek other employment.
Which is why I think, and I would invite our atheist commentators to give their opinion on ths, what would an outsider think of someone drawing a salary to represent one position which he happens to disagree with and yet use his position to promote his personal views which happen to be at odds with the organisation he joined. And remember, life is not black for priests leaving the priesthood as they have no dependents to consider.
BTW, I have heard a story about an earlier Augustinian Prima Donna, Father Gabriel Daly, who was invited to come on Morning Ireland the day after the late Archbishop McNamara died. David Hanley knew he didn't like the Archbishop. Father Daly was scrupling about taking up the offer. A confrere advised him that RTÉ was using him. When Father Daly heard that and realised it was the case, he declined.
May Father O'Donovan profit by this example.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 11, 2009 11:44:54 GMT
I don't usually commend Ezigoubututu on having a point, but I think it is close to the mark.
The Church exercises a type of fiction of equality of all the lay faithful in death. Most participants in this forum who are Catholic are not in it for the kudos we might get from the clergy - we are more likely to get the opposite. I know a lot of American Catholics are taking offence from the Kennedy funeral, given a lot of aspects of Ted Kennedy's public life.
The matter of the clergy is a different thing. A priest is both an employee and a representative of the Church. Now I know there is a thread here which discusses sundry clerical clowns of whom Fr Iggy is one. He did take a bit of a bruising following his invite to the local CofI rector in Drogheda to concelebrate with him at Easter 2006, but essentially he has been unscathed. This isn't fair on the numbers of priests who have been taking flak about the shortcomings of their bishops and superiors while Iggy has been turning it to his advantage. The question is what does Fr Iggy O'Donovan OSA stand for other than Fr Iggy O'Donovan?
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 14, 2009 15:35:34 GMT
Just as a matter of curiosity, what makes ezigbotutu say that Fr. Peter McVerry does not believe the basic doctrines of the Catholic faith? I would not be so ready to deal out general excommunications right, left and centre as Ezigbotutu suggests - there is a great deal in the Gospel and St. Paul about the dangers of presumption and self-righteous condemnation, and the need not to break the bruised reed or quench the smoking wick. I can actually see some point in giving Teddy Kennedy a Catholic funeral given that he does appear to have displayed some degree of penitence and profession of faith, though I think not enough was done to dispel the scandal he gave by such actions as repeatedly proclaiming abortion to be a human right and aggressively blocking any attempt to restrict it. Those who explicitly teach falsehood and deny basic Catholic doctrines are in a different category. I find it very hard to understand why John McGahern and Nuala O Faolain were given Catholic funerals since both of them within a week of their deaths publicly and explicitly stated that they were atheists and died without retracting this view in any way whatsoever, so far as I am aware.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 14, 2009 17:34:40 GMT
Perhaps we shoudl clarify something. My understanding, and presumably that of the churhc leaders, is that membership of the church is a blessing and one of which someone ought not to be deprived except on the mostobvious grounds and for the gravest cause, wit every possible avenue for mercy. Ezigbotutu on the other hand believes that membership of the church is delusional submission to an exploitative institution and that the church authorities' reluctance to excommunicate represents a desire to boost their influence by fraudulent means (i.e. claiming more members than they actually possess). This is a rather fundamental difference in understanding the subject.
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