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Post by hibernicus on Sept 4, 2011 20:25:38 GMT
From Politics.ie, a fine example of how atheism promotes credulity. The author is clearly not an Ulster Protestant, because he uses a photo of Michael Davitt as his avatar, but he actually claims that all Catholic priests take the oath below at their ordinations. Althouhg several posters on the thread point out it is a well-known forgery, other accept it at face value: www.politics.ie/forum/health-social-affairs/169281-catholic-priests-subversive-ordination-oath.htmlToday 01:42 PM #1 Thekinghasnoclothes Politics.ie Regular Join Date Jun 2011 Posts 2,184 The law of a State means nothing to a Catholic Priest. They have voved to subvert it.
Priest Oath Jesuit Oath
The Oath of a Catholic Priest
"I, _____, now in the presence of Almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael and Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and the Saints and the Sacred Hosts of Heaven, and to you my Lord, I do declare from my heart, without mental reservation, that the Pope is Christ's Vicar-General, and is the true and only Head of the Universal Church throughout the earth, and that by virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given to his Holiness by Jesus Christ, he has power to dispose heretical kings, princes, states, commonwealths and governments, all being illegal without his sacred confirmation, and they may safely be destroyed.
Therefore, to the uttermost of my power, I will defend the doctrine and his Holiness' rights and customs against all usurpers of the Protestant authority whatsoever, especially against the now pretended authority and church in England and all adherents, in regard that they be usurpal and heretical opposing the Sacred Mother, the Church of Rome.
"I do denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any Protestant king, prince, state, or obedience to any of their inferior officers. I do further declare the doctrine of the church of England, of the Calvinists, Huguenots and other Protestants to be damnable, and those to be damned who will not forsake the same.
"I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of his Holiness' agents in any place wherever I shall be, and do my utmost to extirpate Protestant doctrine, and to destroy all their pretended power, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that not withstanding that I may be permitted by dispensation to assume any heretical religion for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest, to keep secret and private all her agents' councils as they entrust me, and not to divulge directly or indirectly, by word, writing, or circumstance whatsoever, but to execute all which shall be proposed, given in charge or discovered unto me by you my most Reverend Lord and Bishop.
"All of which I, _____, do swear by the blessed Trinity and sacrament which I am about to receive, to perform on my part, to keep inviolably, and do call on all the Heavenly and Glorious Hosts of Heaven to witness my real intentions to keep this my oath.
"In testimony wherefore I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist, and witness the same further with my consecrated hand, in the presence of my Holy Bishop and all the Priests who assist him in my Ordination to Priesthood." Last edited by Thekinghasnoclothes; Today at 01:51 PM. Schomberg likes this. Blasphemy is a victim-less crime! The Bible is just a collection Bronze Age Myths END The author's nom de blog is very appropriate, though not in the way he thinks. Here are a few more fearless truth-tellers of equal credibility whom he can take up : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Oates en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Monk Judging by the standards of intelligence and critical perspicacity he has displayed, Thekinghasnoclothes will then be found pursuing the equally authentic intrigues of those wicked Elders of Zion: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion This credulity shows that some of our dear Irish atheists will believe any old nonsense, and - worse still -will be taken seriously by many. What a pity they did not get some sound Catholic catechesis - it would have taught them some sense.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 8, 2011 23:34:44 GMT
The new issue of the PHOENIX has a skit on the Vatican reply to Inda over Cloyne in which it presents the Vatican as denying that the earth is round and that night follows day. The PHOENIX is beneath contempt but I am afraid it speaks for a lot of the Irish public on this. They won't pay attention to the evidence (what Eamon Gilmore contemptuously calls legalism) they will just assume the Vatican is self-evidently guilty and anyone who disputes this will be condemned sight unseen as a knave or a fool.
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Post by humphrey on Sept 9, 2011 10:56:30 GMT
I was hoping that the Phoenix might have had some gossip apropos the Vatican response. Next issue maybe. The previous issue had a filler article called "religious hacks fight back" which was a overview of David Quinn's and Breda O Brien's articles on Cloyne. It contained an interesting aside that neither journalist has been refuted. Does Goldhawk's sceptism of the Irish high and mighty extend to the bash the Vatican buster i wonder.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 9, 2011 21:07:06 GMT
My impression of that piece was that it was based on the assumption that the mere fact of someone having defended the Vatican was self-discrediting, and that it was therefore unnecessary to post a detailed refutation. THis is the general spirit in which Goldhawk covers matters Catholic. Some of their church news is written in such bitter style that it is widely attributed to certain well-known liberal priests.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 9, 2011 22:53:01 GMT
A Tory MP representing Hove (a south coast resort with a large homosexual population) has publicly suggested that churches which refuse to bless same-sex unions should not be entitled to celebrate marriages at all (i.e. their clergy would no longer be recognised as registrars of marriages by the state and their congregants would have to undergo a separate civil ceremony, as is done in France). THis is more "decontamination" of the Tory brand a la Cameron. How long before our own apostles of political correctness take up this cry - I'm surprised they haven't done so already, given the voluble denunciations of the 'refusal' of 'marriage equality'. Fish must be given equal rights to ride bicycles, so let us remove the absurd requirement that bicycles must have wheels and punish those who refuse to accept the wheelless variety as real bikes! wdtprs.com/blog/2011/09/uk-mp-pushes-to-force-church-to-have-contrary-to-nature-marriages-or-no-marriages-at-all/fpb.livejournal.com/578275.html?thread=4450787#t4450787
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 10, 2011 9:06:30 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 12, 2011 12:30:21 GMT
Yesterday's SUNDAY INDEPENDENT had a rant by Eilis O'Hanlon criticising Alan Shatter for "backing down" as she saw it on abolishing the seal of the confessional. Among other things, she claimed that the defenders of the seal had been "flooding the airwaves with wearers of Roman collars" - which will come as news both to lay commenters who defended the seal and to the ACP who wear such collars as little as possible. She declared that the Seal represented "the canker of special privilege" and that to allow it a faith must give evidence of better behaviour than the Catholic Church has shown. So now we know. According to the SINDO Magisterium, at least as represented by Ms O'Hanlon, religious freedom is not an imprescriptible human right but is conditional on good behaviour, as defined by Ms O'Hanlon.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 18, 2011 18:38:30 GMT
An interesting comment by "Humphrey" from a recent THIRSTY GARGOYLE post identifies a common stereotype in Irish anti-Catholicism. I may discuss it further in a later post when I have thought it over. thethirstygargoyle.blogspot.com/2011/09/sometimes-truth-hurts.htmlHumphrey said... Are the academic studies into media presentation of the abuse crisis anywhere online? I have noticed in the past that the likes of VIncent Browne and Pat Kenny when dealing with clerical sex abuse assume that people like them would never cover up abuse. Because they are normal people with "healthy" attitudes to sex. Priests on the other hand are inhuman freaks with "unhealthy" attitudes to sex. Hence they cover up abuse. Fr Banville is directly attacking this notion hence the reaction. Throughout the media Catholicism is presented as a alien, malign, authoritarian, influence. This image of Catholicism is juxtaposed with image of Ireland's true nature as being earthy, humane and undogmatic. The saga surrounding the banning of the book "The Tailor and Ansty" sums up this theme IMO. The tailor with his earthy even smutty stories represents Ireland true nature. The priests who forced him to burn his biography are represent the alien element which we have only recently thrown off from the broad sunlit upland of sexual and intellectual liberation. SEPTEMBER 17, 2011 6:40 PM
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Post by humphrey on Sept 19, 2011 10:14:23 GMT
I'll add to my comments. Over the past year or so I have noticed that Vincent Browne and Pat kenny when discussing the cover up of child abuse use a hypothetical scenario. The scenario essentially is that if they and their secular panelists had discovered child sex abuse they not hesitate to report abuse. The assumption seems to be that because they are "healthy" "normal" people they would not be restrained by considerations such as canon law. It's a form of the maxim that it takes religion to make a good man do evil. Michael Kelly noticed a slight contradiction in Mr Kenny's stance with reference to the Gerry Ryans cocaine use. www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/clericalism-media-too-michael-kellyI am fully aware that cocaine use is radically different to child abuse. But still, it's a crime in which peoples lives are ruined to satisfy addictions. I actually find this attitude disturbing. If I were confronted by child sex abuse I would hope that I handled it properly. But who knows what nuances would make me think that reporting the abuse was wrong. Maybe the victim didn't want it etc. I pray I'm never in such a situation. And surely emotional attachment poses risk as well. It may cloud a persons judgement e.g. attachment to the abuser.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 19, 2011 12:23:55 GMT
Good point about the cocaine use, given that using cocaine supports some very nasty criminal organisations (here and abroad) so it's not a "victimless crime" (even if one were to take the extreme libertarian view that there is an absolute right to destroy onself and friends and family are not entitled to interfere with someone's decision to do so. On the other hand, the parallel is disturbing in another respect - the reason why celebrities do not report cocaine-using friends to the authorities is that it is so widespread (or at least well-known) in their social circles that they do not regard it as really serious/harmful; similarly I would suggest a lot of clerics involved in the coverup either did not regard it as serious or focussed on rehabilitating the offender to such an extent that they saw the victims as merely incidental. The reason Catholicism is presented as unhealthy, malign, authoritarian IMHO is that for various reasons we now have 2-3 generations who have not been adequately catechised and who have little contact with clerics as individuals. Hence they have only a limited sense of how Catholicism "hangs together" and how it feels from the inside - and hence they cannot understand why anyone would make sacrifices on its behalf, and see those who do make such sacrifices as demented. I remember Kevin Myers commenting that in one generation Ireland had gone from producing vast numbers of religious vocations to seeing consecrated religious as being as alien as "the fakir at the Ganges and the rabbi praying by the Western Wall".
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 20, 2011 21:23:55 GMT
Over the last few weeks I have noticed posters up around Dublin advertising something called "Troubling Ireland" - apparently some sort of artists' group which wants to spark debate about the state of the country. The posters can be viewed at the link below: www.troublingireland.com/Note that one of these posters reproduces the section of the Equality Act which allows religious institutions to take their religious ethos into account when recruiting or dismissing employees under the heading LOOPHOLE? The effect is to suggest that this is some sort of anomaly, whereas in fact it is a clear exemption, just as excusing pacifists from military service in time of war is an exemption. To abolish the section would make it impossible to maintain religiously-inspired institutions or organisations and be a big step towards reducing religious freedom to "freedom of belief" to be enjoyed only within the confines of one's own skull. For a good discussion of this point by the Archbishop of St Paul, Minnesota, see here: wdtprs.com/blog/2011/09/archbp-nienstedt-a-serious-threat-to-religious-freedom-radical-secularism-at-its-epitome-action-item/ Let's keep a close eye on this little exercise in political correctness.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 22, 2011 23:37:01 GMT
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Post by humphrey on Sept 29, 2011 20:38:01 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 29, 2011 22:34:44 GMT
I don't know if this is exactly parallel since (a) the rabbi is himself accused of participating in the crime under investigation and (b) there is a dispute about whether the Talmud actually requires one not to testify against fellow Jews. This is not so much like the seal of the confessional (which is a form of professional privilege applicable to clerics of all denominations) as like the attempts of individual religious groups to be allowed conscientious objection from particular laws on the basis of their beliefs - e/g the Amish seeking exemption from school attendance because their religion forbids schooling past a certain age. The big problem here is that the court is being asked to rule on what is or is not an authentic interpretation of Talmudic law. US courts generally avoid ruling on internal doctrinal disputes within a religious body because they believe the separation of church and state in the US Constitution precludes a secular court ruling on what constitutes authentic doctrine. British courts have historically been more willing to tread in this area - e.g when the Scottish Free Church split over a proposal to unite with another body, and the two groups went to law over whether the church's property should go to the majority or to the minority which claimed to represent the church's original doctrinal statements.
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Post by shane on Oct 4, 2011 17:25:22 GMT
I have been reading some things lately that have really depressed me. In The Death of Christian Britain Callum Brown notes that the testimonies of social liberalisation in 1960s England are almost always from the liberal perspective; he attributes this to the inarticulate nature of British Christianity. In 50 years time historians examining back Irish Catholic history will also be getting a very skewed narrative and drawing from unrepresentative sources, because almost all those who have endeavoured to write on the topic do so with conventional liberal assumptions.
I think we need to put much, MUCH more focus on our history, while there's still time. The tendency to demonize the pre-conciliar Irish Church (a la Fr Vincent Twomey's disappointing book The End of Irish Catholicism) is a temptation which must be resisted. Likewise we must also account for the real failures and flaws that existed, whether circumstancial or the result of decided policy. Until then, I believe it is largely futile trying to engage with secular society, because the perception of Irish Catholicism is now inextricably tied up (whether we like it or not) with its historic social role.
Another thing that bothers me is that we have no high-circulation secular/mainstream newspapers, reviews or magazines in which to express a traditionalist perspective --- unlike traditionalist Catholics in France, Italy or the USA.
I hate the present but really dread the future. If I didn't have access to old Irish Catholic publications, I think I would go insane (or more insane than I already am). Everything seems so hopeless...no?
What do we do? Any ideas or suggestions?
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