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Post by guillaume on Jan 23, 2009 13:46:43 GMT
It is very likely and nearly official than the Pope had/will lifted/lift the decree of excommunication regarding the 4 bishops of the SSPX. So from monday or tuesday, SPPX will be officially back to the Church.
What do you think ?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 23, 2009 14:52:17 GMT
No, Guillaume. The liftings of the excommunications will not mean the SSPX are back in the Church - it only means the bishops will not be excommunicated. They, with all the SSPX priests and deacons, will still be suspended and without faculties and the SSPX chapels will still not be approved.
What it does mean is that the Holy See will have fulfilled the SSPX's conditions for negotiations to begin. After that, everything depends on the SSPX and how serious they are about negotiating with the Holy See (in the case of Mgr Fellay, I think very serious; in the case of the others I am not so sure). If the negotiations succeed, the SSPX will be back in the Church, but they will have to arrive at some sort of formula regarding the Second Vatican Council and the legitimacy of the Ordinary Form of Mass (which no SSPX superior will be able to prohibit any of his priests from saying - isn't Summorum Pontificum wonderful?). If the negotiations don't succeed, well then we can speculate as to what Rome will do to emphasise its displeasure and underline the fact the SSPX are not in the Church. The idea sounds horrible.
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Post by guillaume on Jan 23, 2009 16:21:19 GMT
Well to be honest, as I know, I do not think most of the SPPX will tolerate VII reforms as acceptable and above all the NOM or NO being valid and sacred, as Benedict XVI said in the MP. So we all know the whole process. SPPX do not think the NOM , the ordinary form of the mass, is ok, to speak simply. Most, if not the majority of the SPPX faithful, doubt even about the validity of the NOM. To be honest, they completely reject it. Ok, then. So let's see. Jean Paul II made a mistake, he over-reacted... And Benedict the XVI with great mercy (and the help of more one million chaplets, according to the SPPX), decided to lift the punishment. I am sorry, but the lifting of the Excommunication is a major step toward the SPPX into the Church indeed. However, knowing them, I do not know how come they will come back to Church, as you said, as they reject VII and the NOM, the mass which is celebrated by the Pope. But also, to be honest, the ED communities, without telling it frankly, reject VII as well and the NOM. ED might be "inside" the Church, but inside their heart, they just reject the NOM, the new mass, and VII reforms as much as SPPX does. No ?
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jan 23, 2009 20:46:17 GMT
I am sorry, but the lifting of the Excommunication is a major step toward the SPPX into the Church indeed [/b] . However, knowing them, I do not know how come they will come back to Church, as you said, as they reject VII and the NOM, the mass which is celebrated by the Pope. But also, to be honest, the ED communities, without telling it frankly, reject VII as well and the NOM. ED might be "inside" the Church, but inside their heart, they just reject the NOM, the new mass, and VII reforms as much as SPPX does. No?[/quote] Guillaume, that's a very interesting point. I think there probably are many Traditionalists who, while not associated with SSPX, do indeed have a strong dislike of Vatican II, the new Mass and the rest of it. How many of them could be said to reject them, I don't know.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jan 23, 2009 20:50:44 GMT
The liftings of the excommunications will not mean the SSPX are back in the Church - it only means the bishops will not be excommunicated. They, with all the SSPX priests and deacons, will still be suspended and without faculties and the SSPX chapels will still not be approved. That's reassuring. The media reports are clearly as ill-informed as one would expect. Another interesting question is how a reconciliation with Rome would deal with the status of the 4 as bishops. The thought of Richard Williamson as a bishop of the Catholic Church in good standing is disturbing. Without wishing to be uncharitable, the best result might be a reconciliation of the majority of SSPX and their supporters with Rome, with Williamson and his sympathisers breaking away again and heading up their own cul-de-sac. One of the few merits of the present situation is that some very unpleasant people, who would be a disgrace to Catholicism, are sidelined in their own cult.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jan 27, 2009 11:33:49 GMT
I agree with Michael. I think the best the Church can hope for is a majority of the SSPX. Dickie Williamson is welcome to take his bloc of supporters into the sunset, and they will regard themselves as the true Catholic Church when they are there.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 28, 2009 0:41:23 GMT
If I remember correctly, Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras lifted their mutual excommunications in the 1970s, but that doesn't mean the Great Schism has ended. Are the two situations comparable?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jan 29, 2009 11:39:11 GMT
I think, despite differences of time and scale, the events are comparable. We are at the beginning of the discussion.
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