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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 21, 2018 8:24:15 GMT
Nearly every debate in Catholicism today seems to come down to the extent and nature of infallibility, and to what is and isn't magisterial. I must admit I find it extremely difficult to discern this for myself. It's rather hazy when you really get down to it, outside of exceptional cases such as proclaimed dogma. Stick to the Cathechism - that's why it's there The rest, is just internal doctrinal politicking, and the Holy Spirit at work sorting it out. The increasing difficulty, I find, is in no small part due to the public utterances of Pope Francis. We are hearing more and more said by him in public (not infallibly I might stress) that contradicts not only Church Doctrine, but in some cases, contradicts positions he has previously stated himself. It occurred to me just recently that if his thinking is self-contradictory, this may actually be an early sign of dementia - and a quick search reveals that I'm not the only one thinking along these lines. It raises some very interesting questions. Fine, but which Catechism, and why?
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Post by Account Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 8:49:53 GMT
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 21, 2018 9:02:34 GMT
Well, there are plenty of Traditionalists who take exception to that Catechism in many regards. Do you really think I needed a link to the 1992 Catechism? Would you accept that there's quite a lot that's not covered in the Catechism? What if Pope Francis amends the section on capital punishment in the Catechism, as St. John Paul II did already, and as he's suggested he will, to insist that the death penalty is morally impermissible even in principle? Would it be compromised then? www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/10/12/pope-francis-revise-catechism-to-show-death-penalty-is-inadmissible/Are you the kind of person who, when someone tells you they've looked for their wallet everywhere, asks them: "Did you look in your pockets?"
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Post by Account Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 16:44:49 GMT
Do you really think I needed a link to the 1992 Catechism? Are you the kind of person who, when someone tells you they've looked for their wallet everywhere, asks them: "Did you look in your pockets?" Sorry if my post offended you; it was actually intended to be helpful. Would you accept that there's quite a lot that's not covered in the Catechism? What if Pope Francis amends the section on capital punishment in the Catechism, as St. John Paul II did already, and as he's suggested he will, to insist that the death penalty is morally impermissible even in principle? Would it be compromised then? Are you the kind of person who, when someone tells you they've looked for their wallet everywhere, asks them: "Did you look in your pockets?" I'm the kind person who thinks there's no use investing energy in things until they actually happen, and may never happen, particularly those things out of my direct control and with others best positioned to deal with them. I could write to Pope Francis, I suppose.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 22, 2018 20:09:44 GMT
I appreciate you were trying to be helpful, and thank you, but it came across as condescending. I've read the Catechism from cover to cover on more than one occasion.
I agree that the laity have little or no influence on doctrinal developments in the Church. But on a forum like this, where we are trying to grapple intellectually with our Faith and with its application to life and thought in general, it seems arbitrary to draw boundaries other than the boundaries of dogma. I do think the nature of infallibility and the limits of docility are important, practical questions, as well.
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Post by hibernicus on Apr 18, 2018 21:24:04 GMT
David Kertzer argues that comparison of the recently-published Edgardo Mortara memoir with the original text shows that the published text has been altered to remove elements which suggest problematic attitudes and behaviour by the papal authorities. Kertzer has some axes of his own to grind, but this seems to be a very strong prima facie case. The editors and publishers have some explaining to do - integrity of the text should be paramount. www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/04/edgardo-mortara-doctored-memoir/554948/
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 29, 2018 20:42:24 GMT
There is quite a nice piece in the current Catholic Herald on Cardinal Manning's respect for the mutual support system operated by the Jewish community in the London of his day, and his joining in protests against Russian persecution of Jews and using his influence at the Vatican to have measures taken to restrain the spread of the blood libel among Catholics. There is much that is sad in the history of our relations with the Jews (I confess that I shudder when I see a statue of St Vincent Ferrer or an image of St John Capistrano for this reason) but we should remember the bright side also. Pray for the repose of our brethren of the olive tree who were murdered in Pittsburgh. PS - Here's an example of how not to handle such things. As soon as the news reached Britain a certain member of the House of Lords well known for Islamophile sympathies tweeted that people should realise that Israeli foreign policy contributed to such things. Obviously the peer assumed the killer was an Arab or Muslim, for soon afterwards they posted an apology once it became clear the murderer was a neo-Nazi; as if the murder of innocent (mostly elderly) people attending their place of worship could be excused or not depending on the identity of the killer.
I was living in Belfast at the time of the Shankill bombing 20 years ago, and I remember the priest at Mass the next Sunday warning the congregation to leave immediately after Mass and not to wait around in the porch or car park, in case loyalists decided to shoot up the church as a reprisal. That was bad. How much worse must it be for the Jewish community in Pittsburgh who have had acquaintances murdered like this?
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Post by hibernicus on Dec 13, 2018 20:17:50 GMT
Simcha Fisher offers some thoughts on anti-semitism, sparked by a blunder in which the American Catholic News Service tried to offer good wishes for Jews celebrating Hanukkah by tweeting a picture of a sculpture showing some men carrying a menorah (multi-branched Jewish candlestick). What the CNS didn't realise is that the sculpture is from the Arch of Titus in Rome and shows Roman soldiers carrying off the sacred vessels from the Temple as loot after the destruction of Jerusalem. Anyone reasonably well-educated in Jewish history should recognise the image, and know that many Jews living in or visiting Rome avoid the Arch of Titus because it is a monument to their national humiliation - in other words, it is almost the worst image that could have been chosen for its intended purpose. Now, I think Ms Fischer goes a bit too far in suggesting there was something worse than cluelessness in this, and in CNS's clumsy attempts at mollification when they realised what they had done. Similarly, I think she goes a bit far in suggesting that references to George Soros and his activities are necessarily anti-semitic, given that his financial support for certain causes and organisations is a matter of public record. (That said, I would also like to point out - what I wish certain people who talk about Mr Soros would do - that he is in good faith; he really thinks his activities are building a better world and he is a benefactor of humanity.) Nevertheless, after making these caveats, I would still recommend that you read the article, because Ms Fisher's descriptions of how self-proclaimed traditionalist Catholics regularly cite her own Jewish ancestry as "proof" that she is a stooge of the Elders of Zion, and of the willingness of some Catholics to flirt with genuinely sinister and dangerous forces in the belief that my enemy's enemy is my friend, highlight real dangers we must be on our guard against. It is dangerously easy to go hunting for grand conspiracies to explain everything that has gone wrong, rather than engage in the hard (and co-operative) work of understanding what went wrong and trying to do something to fix it. www.simchafisher.com/2018/12/03/catholics-cant-afford-careless-anti-semitism/
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Post by maolsheachlann on Dec 13, 2018 23:28:52 GMT
So a prompt apology and then a second apology for the first apology not being apologetic enough still doesn't cut the mustard for Fischer.
Some people are just determined to be offended.
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Post by Young Ireland on Dec 14, 2018 6:50:13 GMT
So a prompt apology and then a second apology for the first apology not being apologetic enough still doesn't cut the mustard for Fischer. Some people are just determined to be offended. I'm pretty sure that if it was Catholicism that was inadvertently mocked that you wouldn't just brush it off like that. Also, she accepted their argument that it was inadvertent, and she used it to point out that such mistakes embolden real anti-semitism. I don't think there is any problem with that.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Dec 14, 2018 10:01:59 GMT
So a prompt apology and then a second apology for the first apology not being apologetic enough still doesn't cut the mustard for Fischer. Some people are just determined to be offended. I'm pretty sure that if it was Catholicism that was inadvertently mocked that you wouldn't just brush it off like that. Also, she accepted their argument that it was inadvertent, and she used it to point out that such mistakes embolden real anti-semitism. I don't think there is any problem with that. Actually you are wrong. I am as critical of Catholic and Irish over-sensitivity as I am of any other sort. irishpapist.blogspot.com/2017/11/happy-guy-fawkes-day.htmlburkeanjournal.com/reviving-the-irish-revival/(Never miss an opportunity to plug your own writings, that's what I say.)
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Post by Young Ireland on Dec 14, 2018 12:57:17 GMT
I'm pretty sure that if it was Catholicism that was inadvertently mocked that you wouldn't just brush it off like that. Also, she accepted their argument that it was inadvertent, and she used it to point out that such mistakes embolden real anti-semitism. I don't think there is any problem with that. Actually you are wrong. I am as critical of Catholic and Irish over-sensitivity as I am of any other sort. irishpapist.blogspot.com/2017/11/happy-guy-fawkes-day.htmlburkeanjournal.com/reviving-the-irish-revival/(Never miss an opportunity to plug your own writings, that's what I say.) Ok Maolsheachlann, fair enough. I do think that Ms. Fischer raised a valid point though that the behaviour she talked about can england real antisemitism.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Dec 14, 2018 15:35:33 GMT
Ok Maolsheachlann, fair enough. I do think that Ms. Fischer raised a valid point though that the behaviour she talked about can england real antisemitism. One problem is that a common anti-semitic trope is that "the Jews are the one group you're not allowed to criticize". So reactions like those of Fischer are actually feeding this, in my view. I am actually very philosemitic. The dedication of the Jewish people to their traditions is something I find profoundly inspiring. In fact, it was partly an interest in Judaism which led me to faith. (One of many things.) I'm disappointed that anti-semitism is so common among Catholics, conservatives, traditionalists, nationalists, etc. But this kind of thing is just trivial.
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Post by annie on Mar 5, 2019 22:07:14 GMT
Dr Robert Moynihan has written about the opening of the Pius XII archive
Tuesday, March 5, 2019
Pius XII: Hitler's Pope -- Or a Saintly and Heroic Pontiff?
The Vatican has decided to open its secret archives for the war years of World War II (1939-1945). The decision was announced yesterday by Pope Francis.
(Note: Actually, the archives for the entire pontificate of Pope Pius XII will be opened, from 1939 until 1958. But the years that are likely to be most interesting and controversial are those first years, when the Second World War was raging.)
(Note also: This will not happen immediately; the archives will only be open starting in one year, on March 2, 2020 — the 81st anniversary of the election of Pius XII in 1939.)
(Note also: The usual practice in Rome is to open the archives for an entire pontificate, and this is usually done 70 years after the end of the pontificate. In this case, if one calculates 70 years from 1958 — the year Pius XII died — the opening year would normally have been 2028, but the decision has been taken to open the archives about eight years early, in 2020.)
So scholars next March will be able to go into the Secret Archives and consult the material about the Vatican's actions during World War II.
Bishop Sergio Pagano, a scholar of ancient manuscripts who heads the Vatican Secret Archives (and my professor in a Vatican Archives course in paleography in 1985) says historians will discover a "superhuman work of Christian humanism." (link)
In other words, Pagano believes the archives will show that the Vatican and Pope Pius XII, far from assisting the German National Socialist regime of Adolph Hitler, took a firm stand against it, and saved many lives, especially in the Jewish community, whom Hitler and his regime were savagely persecuting.
(Note: British author, John Cornwell, in 1999 published a book entitled Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, arguing that Pius XII was sympathetic to and aided Hitler; the thesis was widely seconded by critics of Pius XII and the Church, and contributed to a modern blackening of Pius's image in world opinion; critics of Cornwell argue that his book is tendentious and unfair to Pius; these critics believe that the documents the Vatican will open to public scrutiny will prove this.)
(Note also: In the court of public opinion, the case of Pope Pius XII has become pivotal for public opinion about the Church itself, and about the Christian faith in general. For those who oppose the Christian message, the Catholic Church is a key obstacle to overcome; and to overcome the Catholic Church, the papacy, the reputation for holiness of the "Holy Father," is a key point to attack; and to attack the papacy, it is useful to expose, criticize and rebuke one or another Pope for immorality or evil actions; thus, the attack of many against Venerable Pius XII, accusing him of being "Hitler's Pope" and complicit in the persecutions of the German regime, is aimed at destroying the reputation for sanctity of Pius, which would then cast suspicion on all Popes, which would then blacken the reputation of the Catholic Church, which would then cast a shadow on Christianity and Christian belief in general. This is why the defense of a compassionate and humane pontiff like Pius XII against his accusers becomes a defense of all honorable Popes, a defense of the Catholic Church in general, and a defense of the Christian faith in general.)
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The Decision to Open the Archives Is "Welcome News"
Following Pope Francis’s decision to open the archives from Pope Pius XII’s pontificate (1939-1958), I asked long-time "Inside the Vatican" contributor William Doino Jr., well-known for his leading role in defending Pius XII in the anthology, The Pius War: Responses to the Critics of Pius XII, in public debates, and in many articles and reviews, for his comments. Below is his response:
“The announcement [Note: this link is to the Pope's official declaration that he would allow the archives to be opened, and is worth reading] that Pope Francis has decided to open the remaining archives of Pius XII’s pontificate next year is welcome news indeed.
“We should be very grateful to Francis for this decision.
“Why is it welcome? First and foremost, because it is the moral and just thing to do. For many years, researchers, historians, leaders of the Jewish and Catholic communities, and especially survivors of the Holocaust, have requested—and have a right to know—all the documentation the Vatican has available on Pope Pius XII’s record during World War II. To its credit, the Vatican did publish 11 volumes of primary source material on the Holy See’s wartime activities, in instalments, from 1965-1981; and since then has released more documentation [Note: This too is interesting documentation] on the Vatican’s humanitarian efforts during the War. But now that the large volume of remaining documents from Pius XII’s pontificate will soon be officially catalogued and released, these heartfelt requests for a complete record of his pontificate will at last be fulfilled.
“Second, as Francis himself has said, no conscientious Catholic has anything to fear from the truth about Church history, but should welcome it. Indeed, if anyone is going to be surprised by the new Pius XII archives, it may well be Pius XII’s critics, because -- as a long-time Pius XII researcher myself -- I know that the Vatican is one of the few institutions on earth that is slow to release historical information favorable to its own cause! This happened, for example, when the Vatican finally released the full archives from Pius XI’s pontificate (1922-1939, during which Eugenio Pacelli, the future Pius XII, served as Pius XI’s Cardinal Secretary of State, from 1930-1939) — and it was revealed that the Vatican’s opposition to racism, anti-Semitism, fascism and Nazism at that time was far stronger than previously thought. (For evidence, note these commentaries here, and here).
“Finally, because there have been so many egregious misrepresentations of Pius XII’s life and legacy, the release of these remaining archives, as the Vatican’s chief archivist, Monsignor Sergio Pagano has said [Note: This also is interesting] will finally set the record straight on Pius XII’s impressive pontificate — which, with the abundance of testimonies and primary source material already available, we know was anything but indifferent to the persecution of Jews and others during the Holocaust, and did not, as certain polemicists have claimed, appease the Nazis: Pope Pius XII, in fact, tried to overthrow Hitler. [Note: This too is interesting.]
“As regards what the release of the new archives will mean for the ongoing Cause of Venerable Pius XII, I think it will certainly benefit it, because it removes an oft-heard reason for so much hesitation about Pius XII — namely, that ‘we don’t yet know everything that is in the Vatican archives about Pius XII’s pontificate.’”
“It is not an unreasonable point raised by sincere seekers of the truth, as I wrote in the Times of London after Pope Benedict XVI declared Pius XII ‘Venerable’ in 2009. But we have every reason to believe that these additional archives will only enhance Pius XII’s stature. We also need to trust the Holy Spirit, who has His own timetable for the Church to formally recognize saints.
“Finally, it should be noted that Francis’s announcement on the Pius XII archives comes at a time when even many secular institutions and historians have begun to express more support for Pius XII, acknowledging the growing body of evidence in his favor. The forthcoming release of the additional Pius XII archives can only help foster this ongoing re-evaluation and appreciation.”
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Post by annie on Mar 5, 2019 22:10:50 GMT
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