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Post by hazelireland on Oct 30, 2008 8:46:48 GMT
I think you miss the point. I have had long discussions with people about the works of Shakespeare. We can talk at length about how the actions of Macbeth are unjust and wrong.
Do I at ANY point have to believe that Macbeth is real to do this?
Do you personally have a complete inability to discuss characters in fiction because you need to believe the characters are real before you do so? I imagine a conversation with you about literature could be very dull if this is the case.
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Post by ezigboututu on Oct 30, 2008 21:39:03 GMT
As the atheists claim there is no God, then why is the fundamental protest of the atheist that God is unjust? I am referring to one claim of the atheist at www.infidels.org/library/modern/george_smith/defending.html "Atheism: The Case Against God." How is it that any organization of supposed non-believers propose that the primary cause of their unbelief is the supposition that God is unjust? I will make the assertion that atheists do believe in God and wish to vent their belief that God is unjust in as many Catholic circles of debate as they can be admitted to in an attempt to discredit God as unjust. Atheists have not and do not support their claim of non-belief in God with any factual or even emotional evidence of their non-belief, rather they support their entire proposition by stating then perpetually attempting to claim that they believe that God is unjust. The entire premise of the atheist doctrine of belief is based entirely on an objection to the Word of God as evidenced by their assertion that man does not deserve punishment from God for his transgressions especially when those transgressions are not repented. I would like to post in this thread the entire evidence of support for my dissertations although I will not out of respect for the Catholic Doctrinal text given to us by Saint Paul to always bear in mind what is noble. Suffice it to say that those who are Catholic will know goodness by it's fruit. My purpose in bringing this topic to light is to expose the fallacy of atheist doctrinal beliefs. Good news for you: if Obama gets elected he will bring in universal healthcare and you can get help.
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Post by Harris on Oct 31, 2008 12:30:49 GMT
As the atheists claim there is no God, then why is the fundamental protest of the atheist that God is unjust? I am not sure that is an accurate representation of the atheist position Saint Stephen. Maybe if the two members recently expelled were still here posting they could make their position known on this issue and we could all debate the matter together in a civilized atmosphere.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 1, 2008 10:30:10 GMT
Dear Harris, I have noticed that there are several things that you are not sure of. Exhibit A. I think it a shame that rational people were banned off this board for making good discussions with good back up and evidence. Meanwhile someone like this can make comments that have no content and no purpose other than to deliberately rile up and offend the person to whom they are directed. It is people like this that Catholics should be ashamed of. Also if there were atheists acting in this manner I would be equally ashamed of them. We call for civilised discourse and the response from the catholic side is insults, demeaning inflammatory comments, lies and pointless posts. Where do people here REALLY thing the shame lies?
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 2, 2008 0:05:48 GMT
As I said on another thread, Cardinal Newman pointed out that the central issue for Christians is not so much that God exists but that God loves us and cares for it - a remote and uncaring creator would be unworthy of worship. (At one time this belief in a non-interventionist God was called "material atheism".) Atheists maintain that the world is so full of suffering that it cannot be the work of a benevolent creator, and therefore prefer to believe there is none. This is the question that Job asks in the OLd Testament - and in reply we can only trust in God, point to the blessings of creation and to Jesus and the saints. Purely intellectual argument won't convince - we must try to be like Jesus and address the atheists heart to heart - cor ad cor loquitur - and hope they will eventually "get it". Our Lord hung on the Cross for them and they are precious to Him. SaintStephen, I am sorry to say, is a Job's Comforter.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 2, 2008 0:08:44 GMT
I do not think the atheists who put forward reasoned arguments are "obsessives" - God gave us all the gift of reason and they are trying to exercise it as they know best. Answering them helps us to understand God better. Those who just come here to scream and hurl insults and tell us we are all deliberate liars are a different matter altogether and THEY in my opinion should be banned.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 3, 2008 8:28:02 GMT
Dear Hazelireland, I will take your side if you can explain to me rationally why do atheists have an obsessive compulsive disorder about dialog with Catholics? This website is Catholic and atheists have their own website so why are the atheists crying about not being able to post on a website that does not even represent their inherent belief in God? As explained many times before atheists do not believe, as you do, in segregating people based on their beleifs. They do not hide one group from another. They believe in each group talking to each other. Also as explained your i mage that it has anything specifically to do with catholics is false. The dialouge we have is often with all faiths.
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 3, 2008 8:31:38 GMT
Dear Hibernicus, The obsessive nature of the atheists I am referring to are those who first of all migrate to the Catholic websites to post oppositional statements to Catholic faith who have no intention of welcoming Catholic Doctrine. I have not seen one atheist yet who has an attitude of welcoming Catholic Doctrine, all have been here only to argue against Catholic teaching and to proclaim that God is unjust especially to men who transgress without remorse. If you will simply go back in the dialog of all atheist posting on this site, you will not find one atheist who welcomes Catholic Doctrine, if you find one please tell me whom that is so I can welcome that person to the Catholic faith. Thank you. The problem is you have not even attempted to get past step 1, which is to show that god exists in the first place. People here have referred to atheists ignoring the evidence in front of them. What evidence? Where? Why would ANYONE accept a doctrine the basis of which has not even been shown to be true? Come on sir, some decorum please! You would not believe I would drive you to the shop if you did not first believe I had a car. There is not an atheist on this site who would not openly consider your catholic doctrine if you first showed the god behind it was real. So far you have not even ATTEMPTED to do that, let alone achieved it! All I have heard is that there is evidence, we are ignoring it, but no one here is capable of saying what that evidence is. Stop hiding it, show it to us!
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Post by Harris on Nov 3, 2008 10:50:14 GMT
Dear saint stephen,
Before I respond to your statement above, could you please clarify what you mean?
On first glance it appears that you are willing me to engange in a bout of Juvenile name calling with you.
I sincerely hope that this is not the case.
Can you clarify the situation for me Sir?
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Post by Inedifix II on Nov 3, 2008 10:54:36 GMT
The obsessive nature of the atheists I am referring to are those who first of all migrate to the Catholic websites to post oppositional statements to Catholic faith who have no intention of welcoming Catholic Doctrine. Is it obsessive to respond to an invitation? The atheists were invited here by an administrator. Is it then Christian to treat guests as unwelcome? I have not seen one atheist yet who has an attitude of welcoming Catholic Doctrine, all have been here only to argue against Catholic teaching and to proclaim that God is unjust especially to men who transgress without remorse. If you will simply go back in the dialog of all atheist posting on this site, you will not find one atheist who welcomes Catholic Doctrine, if you find one please tell me whom that is so I can welcome that person to the Catholic faith. It seems you seek an atheist who is not an atheist. Is this not a contradiction in terms?
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Post by Harris on Nov 3, 2008 12:23:35 GMT
Stephen,
With all due respect, that is NOT what happened with Hemingway and inedifix.
Neither member "insulted the host" as you put it.
I am not entirely sure why you have set up this false scenario as it does not tally up with rational debate.
If we reject atheism or individuals who are atheists, we must do so for the correct reasons and not set up fallacious arguments that do not accurately represent our reasons for doing so.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 4, 2008 1:33:52 GMT
Saintstephen: If they came here with the intention of receiving Catholic doctrine they wouldn't be atheists. Let us receive them as they are and try to change them. OK Hazel -let's start with some personal testimony. I learned how to think by reading Catholic apologetics. I picked up some dubious attitudes from the same writers who taught me (at one time I was a lot more like Redmond than I am now, that's why I criticise him so much) but what they taught me enabled me to distinguish their errors from the substance of faith. It does seem to me that the human ability to think and analyse, to develop empathy for beings different from us, suggests that we are not just animals but have some sort of connection to the universe. I believe the ability to know and to develop complex structures of knowledge in ways that go beyond mere empiricism suggests the presence of God. In recent years I have had severe depressive episodes which made me at times feel suicidal, but even at the darkest moments I feel Jesus was there for me and His loving strength sustained me. OK, you will say, this is just my subjective response. Why should the onus of proof be on my response and not on your materialism?
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Post by Inedifix II on Nov 4, 2008 7:24:03 GMT
Dear Mel, It is obsessive to respond to an invitation, come to the party, wear out your welcome by insulting your host Neither Inedifix nor Hemingway insulted the Irish Catholic's admin who invited them here. To the contrary, that admin has actually applauded their contributions. Do you feel your response above is Christian? Do you feel you are behaving in a manner of which Jesus would have approved? Why cannot atheists go off to their own atheists forum Imagine living in a country where the edifice of the state, the legislature, the constitution, the schools, the TV stations and 90% of your family, your friends, your colleagues, and the rest of the population at large, hold to a belief system diametrically opposed to your own. Imagine not being able to educate your children without having to feign adherence to a belief system you consider wrong. Imagine having to make the same pretense to your family to keep them in blissful ignorance of your views. Imagine having to comply with family and peer expectations to subject yourself to various religious ceremonies that go against your own beliefs. Imagine 90% of your life being dominated by the social, cultural and moral mores of this belief system. Imagine having to keep your true feelings about your world view secret from your employers, friends, colleagues, family, community, for fear you'll lose your job, a promotion, a sale, someone's trust, or otherwise be ostracized. Imagine not even being able to choose a funeral that complies with your own world view, because of the insurmountable logistical problems and the risk of hurting your family. Imagine having to pay taxes to support this belief system that you don't believe in, and even having part of your pay cheque foot the legal bill for the sexual abuse crimes perpetrated members of this belief system's hierarchy. Well... that's a snap shot of reality for atheists in Ireland. The Catholic Church and the Catholic State and the 90% Catholic majority are constantly in our faces, every minute of every day, year in year out, telling us what we should think, feel, believe and do... marginalizing us, sneering at us, dismissing us, diminishing our ability to live according to our own credo, and then sending us a bill. So perhaps now you can appreciate why Irish atheists want to engage in online debate with Irish Catholics. ______________________________________________________________ P.S. I am not suggesting that all atheists have all of these problems, but that all atheists experience a combination of some or most of these problems at some stage.
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Post by Harris on Nov 4, 2008 8:55:20 GMT
Saint Stephen wrote:
Stephen,
I have the threads they contributed to saved as word documents on my computer.
Since you are the one accusing both members of not being "courteous and respectful" the burden of proof is on you Sir.
However, I am willing to aid you in your attempt to prove your accusation.
Please tell me where you think both members breached the rules (an instance that stands out in your memory and the topic under debate) and I will happily cut and paste the section onto the forum.
And my case is not quite what you stated above. I would suggest that they were both courteous and respectful but that they were still removed regardless.
We are still waiting for an explaination from the Moderator as to exactly "Why" they were removed.
I think I can prove my case.
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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Post by hazelireland on Nov 4, 2008 9:54:16 GMT
It does seem to me that the human ability to think and analyse, to develop empathy for beings different from us, suggests that we are not just animals but have some sort of connection to the universe. I believe the ability to know and to develop complex structures of knowledge in ways that go beyond mere empiricism suggests the presence of God. A beautifully written response thank you. I would respond in the same way I did on another thread.... we DO have a connection to the universe. We are IN it and are constrained by it and moulded from it. How could we have anything but a connection to it? How can that connection do anything but inspire feelings of awe within us? The atheist is by no means less influenced by feelings of the numinous than the theist is. We have to separate these feelings of the numinous from those who claim that this gives us not just knowledge of there being a god but knowledge of what it wants, that it cares what we eat or who we sleep with. Of course we can be unsure of how this development occurred and we have not all the answers to it. This might suggest a god to you and clearly it does and I can respect that. However you simply have to acknowledge that this is not evidence? It is the practise of allowing one theory to be strengthened without evidence by making statements of uncertainty in another area. Those therefore that make claims in its name are practising the height of dishonesty. Why should the onus of proof be on my response and not on your materialism? There is no onus on either of us until we use our basis to dictate laws and constraints to others. Your response was pretty and very much appreciated and I respect it on every level it is possible to respect it on. There is no onus to prove it either. If you were to turn around however with an opinion based on this... for example if you were to stand up and call all homosexuals immoral and call for a law banning their practises or the removal of their equal status or rights... you would then be forcing the onus on yourself to prove the claims about god which you make. In essence I am not atheist to the core but secular.
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