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Post by redmond on Oct 27, 2008 20:54:32 GMT
Catholic newspapers this week reported that the Church of Ireland and a Catholic exorcist say yes.
The first article quotes "Because evil in the world has a satanic origin we need God's grace to overcome it. Halloween is a pagan festival with pre-christian roots. The promotion of occult practices is condemned by God, and trivialisation of evil is not to be encouraged. [Such celebrations] cannot be reconciled with walking with God. we need to take the reality of evil seriously."
Don't let children dress up at Halloween, says exorcist in another paper headline. Parishes and Catholic schools were also wrong to hold Halloween parties as they allow the Devil to get a foothold in the mind of young people. Halloween has now become second only to Christmas as a time to 'celebrate' preternatural activity. The priest added "When I hear parents claim Halloween is just a bit of harmless fun, I tell them they are seriously misguided... Demons and evil spirits are real. The devil is very active and will use any opportunity to exert his influence. Catholic parents should not let their children dress up as witches and demons....The Devil wants people to to think Halloween is nonsense." In response to those who would condemn the anti-witch Inquisitions of the past, the exorcist said "We cannot apologise for opposing witchcraft." He said we do of course regret some innocent people were killed in this area.
I could not agree more but things have gone too far to stop it becoming it more popular than Christmas. What do you think?
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Post by faithful on Oct 27, 2008 23:36:17 GMT
If more Catholic priests believed and used their 'power' there would be less problems. The devil exists and each priest should know how to perform an exorcism. Priests have been given more grace than mere lay men. We will all be judged but a priest will have a tougher judgement. A protestant man once rebuked a Catholic priest for not using his power. He has that power to expel the devil. Yes, the devil exists but Catholics are not using the weapons. Catholics should pray to St Michael daily and invoke their Guardian Angel.
God never took away the Devils intelligence.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Oct 27, 2008 23:51:06 GMT
It doesn't glorify evil. What it does is what I think people (Christian or not) have done for thousands of years, which is to make fun of death as an alternative to facing the reality of it. Most of us do that. I don't object to Halloween apart from being annoyed at children coming to my door looking for money.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Oct 28, 2008 14:19:42 GMT
I wish people would stop being ridiculous on this topic.
1. Hallowe'en means Eve of All Hallows, ie the Vigil of All Saints. It is interesting that Hallowe'en is supplanting the hitherto anti-Catholic English festival 'Guy Falkes Night' now - Guy Falkes Night appears to me to have been a Protestant festival undertaken to supplant something very Catholic.
2. Yes, Hallowe'en has its origins in the Celtic pagan festival of Samain. So what? So did All Saints and All Souls and Hallowe'en is bound up in both of those. Or at least it used to be.
3. So, the folk customs of Hallowe'en appear to have nothing to do with Christianity? This is veering towards Calvinistic anthropology. Most Catholic countries have something similar which Protestants look down their noses at and some Orthodox folk festivals look positively pagan. Forget the reformation: God made man good and St Thomas says grace builds on nature.
4. Do you think Hallowe'en would have survived the Penal era if it maintained outwardly Catholic forms?
5. A legitimate criticism of Hallowe'en is that it has become very American and oriented toward the dead. The explanation is simple, Americans fused the Celtic Hallowe'en with the Hispanic 'Dia del' muerte' (pardon my atrocious Spanish), which originates in Catholic Spain/Latin America and is, wait for it, based on the Feast of All Souls.
6. I like St Stephen's reference to candy. That is the American practice - here in Ireland the traditional fare were apples and nuts. You see Irish Catholicism hasn't incorporated harvest thanksgiving as elsewhere - the Protestants held the land and could have harvest thanksgiving. The nearest penal era Catholics in Ireland seem to have come to this is Hallowe'en.
7. On the continent, Mardi Gras/Karnival proceed Lent - a festival before a fast. In Irish tradition fasts are maintained for the Holy Souls through the month of November. Hallowe'en, which uses some of the practices of the continental Shrove festivals seems analogous.
8. I wish Catholics, particularly conservative and traditionalist Catholics would stop relying of fundamentalist Protestant analyses of this and other things.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Oct 29, 2008 12:39:23 GMT
I wish people would stop being ridiculous on this topic. 1. Hallowe'en means Eve of All Hallows, ie the Vigil of All Saints. It is interesting that Hallowe'en is supplanting the hitherto anti-Catholic English festival 'Guy Falkes Night' now - Guy Falkes Night appears to me to have been a Protestant festival undertaken to supplant something very Catholic. 2. Yes, Hallowe'en has its origins in the Celtic pagan festival of Samain. So what? So did All Saints and All Souls and Hallowe'en is bound up in both of those. Or at least it used to be. 3. So, the folk customs of Hallowe'en appear to have nothing to do with Christianity? This is veering towards Calvinistic anthropology. Most Catholic countries have something similar which Protestants look down their noses at and some Orthodox folk festivals look positively pagan. Forget the reformation: God made man good and St Thomas says grace builds on nature. 4. Do you think Hallowe'en would have survived the Penal era if it maintained outwardly Catholic forms? 5. A legitimate criticism of Hallowe'en is that it has become very American and oriented toward the dead. The explanation is simple, Americans fused the Celtic Hallowe'en with the Hispanic 'Dia del' muerte' (pardon my atrocious Spanish), which originates in Catholic Spain/Latin America and is, wait for it, based on the Feast of All Souls. 6. I like St Stephen's reference to candy. That is the American practice - here in Ireland the traditional fare were apples and nuts. You see Irish Catholicism hasn't incorporated harvest thanksgiving as elsewhere - the Protestants held the land and could have harvest thanksgiving. The nearest penal era Catholics in Ireland seem to have come to this is Hallowe'en. 7. On the continent, Mardi Gras/Karnival proceed Lent - a festival before a fast. In Irish tradition fasts are maintained for the Holy Souls through the month of November. Hallowe'en, which uses some of the practices of the continental Shrove festivals seems analogous. 8. I wish Catholics, particularly conservative and traditionalist Catholics would stop relying of fundamentalist Protestant analyses of this and other things. At least someone here has common sense.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 29, 2008 15:00:00 GMT
To be fair to Redmond, there is legitimate cause for concern about the form some Halloween celebrations take; some of their more Goth manifestations do revel in darkness and evil (or in the view that the devil has more "fun" - I've seen hen parties going down the street between pubs in which the members are all wearing little horns and carrying plastic pitchforks). BUt to translate this into a condemnation of halloween per se is over the top.
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Post by redmond on Oct 29, 2008 22:40:51 GMT
Somewhere, in one of my exchanges, a contributer made light (ridiculed?) of the Church’s definitive work on demonology, The Malleus Maleficarum (1486). He probably says the same thing against the Summa Theologica so what's new? If we are to progress further on this subject the following should be of interest, for the Malleus states against those who hold that belief in devils and witches is: “altogether illusory and fanciful are plainly heretical,” for disbelief in devils is founded upon absolute infidelity, because the authority of Holy Scripture says that devils have power over the bodies and over the minds of men, when God allows them to exercise this power, as is plain from very many passages in the Holy Scriptures. Therefore those err who say that there is no such thing as witchcraft, but that it is purely imaginary, even although they do not believe that devils exist except in the imagination of the ignorant and vulgar, and the natural accidents which happen to a man he wrongly attributes to some supposed devil, ... But this is contrary to true faith, which teaches us that certain angels fell from heaven and are now devils, and we are bound to acknowledge that by their very nature they can do many wonderful things which we cannot do. And those who try to induce others to perform such evil wonders are called witches. And because infidelity in a person who has been baptized is technically called heresy, therefore such persons are plainly heretics."
The Malleus, speaking of Witches, tells us even more emphatically, that effects of magic "… cannot be procured without resort to the power of the devil, and it is necessary that there should be made a contract with the devil, by which contract the witch truly and actually binds herself to be the servant of the devil and devotes herself to the devil, and this is not done in any dream or under any illusion, but she herself bodily and truly co-operates with, and conjoins herself to, the devil. For this indeed is the end of all witchcraft, whether it be the casting of spells by a look or by a formula of words or by some other charm, it is all of the devil, ... p.7
So, in actual fact, we adults as saintstephen says correctly, have allowed and promoted a situation wherein little girls are made to dress up as witches and act as witches. Now we all know this is done in fun and few can see any harm in it. After all the kids do not know they play a devil's game, so what harm? Well for starters it makes the subject of devils a fun thing rather than spirits to fear. Devils are not fun things in Catholic experience but spirits that want to trick us into hell. Saintstephen says we could teach the kids about bad spirits while dressing them up as witches. To me this sounds counter-productive.
Alaisdir6 says 'Hallowe'en means Eve of All Hallows, ie the Vigil of All Saints.' But doesn't All Souls Day follow the next day so that does bring the dead into the 'holiday'. If halloween was confined to skeletans then OK, but it does not for witches abound. When an exorcist of the Catholic faith warns us of the danger then we should take note
As I said in my opener, it is obvious modern Christianity has lost all sense of devils, fire and hell went out that 'window' at Vatican II so things will not change now only get worse.
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Post by redmond on Nov 1, 2008 15:24:48 GMT
So, here in Dublin halloween is over. It was, according to the news, a night of EVIL. Fires burned and arson abounded. Violence was played out throughout Dublin. Firemen and garda assaulted and the cleanup will cost taxpayers One million Euro.
QED, yes?
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 1, 2008 23:57:05 GMT
Redmond: The Malleus Maleficarum is the work of a private theologian and does not possess magisterial authority. It contributed to the deaths of thousands of innocent people. I do believe in the existence and power of devils and that there are people who consciously serve them, but it is those who serve them unconsciously who do most harm. There are many dubious aspects of present-day Christmas and Easter celebrations - surely you're not saying we should abolish those as well?
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Post by ezigboututu on Nov 2, 2008 12:43:09 GMT
So, here in Dublin Halloween is over. It was, according to the news, a night of EVIL. Fires burned and arson abounded. Violence was played out throughout Dublin. Firemen and garda assaulted and the cleanup will cost taxpayers One million Euro. QED, yes? You're mentally ill and in serious need of a psychiatrist. For anyone to look at Halloween and conclude that the world was suddenly being stalked by "evil" they have to have an extremely warped and mentally sick attitude to life. Of course if you're so mentally disturbed and deluded as to think the earth is not moving using Halloween to demonstrate your black hatred of the humanity is no surprise. It's hardly an arduous mental journey to be claiming you're a Catholic while labeling one Pope after another is a heretic to descending into a mental gutter where you see "evil" in everything. It says a lot about the ill effects of Catholic indoctrination that whackos like you are allowed to rave and spit your bile on Irish people while people who put up perfectly logical and well researched posts like inedifix have their comments deleted. If the edifice of Catholicism is ever pulled crashing down in Ireland sick, self hating ranters like you will be one of the most powerful tools its enemies will have. People like you will be used to tarnish perfectly ordinary decent Irish Catholics with the type of mental puke you pour out on these pages. Quick read this before the Catholic censor deletes it ;D
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Post by redmond on Nov 2, 2008 13:01:04 GMT
Hi again hibernicus. I have no knowledge of the status of the Malleus and it may well be as you say. What I do know is that it served the Church in its time. As regards its contribution to the death of 'thousands', well that is another piece of history that seems to be exaggerated and confusing. Certainly there could have been Churchmen who abused their temporal power at the time and as I said before they will have to answer to God for that. What I do know is that it was held that better a heretic die than have him or her be the cause of others going to hell. These are things that do not seem to us to be very Catholic but it seems they happened in those times.
Unlike holloween, Christmas does not lend itself to street roaming arson and violence. I walked the dog yesterday through our local park and it was defaced with beer cans, fast food litter and burned grass, seats, walls etc. On the way home I saw skips burned out and litter bins burned out on the streets. There were eleven stabbings and God knows how many assaults in Dublin alone. Christmas does not result in this as it is a time of good cheer and being friendly to one's neighbour. Of course I do not say they should be banned for that will never happen. What I say is that yes, halloween not only glorifies evil, but encourages it now. And who could be surprised at this for it has been turned into a devil's night.
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Post by hibernicus on Nov 4, 2008 1:07:36 GMT
Ezigboututu; To be fair to Redmond, in the post to which you refer he pointed to specific effects of present-day Halloween celebrations which we would all regard as evil (vandalism and wanton violence). The problem is that he treats this as evidence that Halloween is evil per se. Redmond: The Malleus is to a considerable extent a work of misogynistic fantasy. The organised witch-cult which it postulates did not exist; hence it is in a different category from the issues arising from the treatment or mistreatment of real-life heretics by the mediaeval and early modern church. (Incidentally, there were no large-scale witch-hunts in Spain or the Papal States because the Roman and Spanish inquisitions, with their long experience of heresy-hunting carried out systematic investigations of the initial accusations and realised that the local accusers and interrogators were projecting their own fantasies onto the accused, whose confessions were simply the product of torture.) What is unpleasant about modern-day Halloween celebrations owes more to the literary satanism of the nineteenth-century Romantic movement a la Lord Byron (the original inspiration for Dracula); glamorisation of the devil as courageous rebel &c by people who do not believe that there is a real devil.
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Post by redmond on Nov 4, 2008 14:27:15 GMT
Ezigboututu wrote
"You're mentally ill and in serious need of a psychiatrist. For anyone to look at Halloween and conclude that the world was suddenly being stalked by "evil" they have to have an extremely warped and mentally sick attitude to life.
Of course if you're so mentally disturbed and deluded as to think the earth is not moving using Halloween to demonstrate your black hatred of the humanity is no surprise.
It's hardly an arduous mental journey to be claiming you're a Catholic while labeling one Pope after another is a heretic to descending into a mental gutter where you see "evil" in everything.
It says a lot about the ill effects of Catholic indoctrination that whackos like you are allowed to rave and spit your bile on Irish people while people who put up perfectly logical and well researched posts like inedifix have their comments deleted.
If the edifice of Catholicism is ever pulled crashing down in Ireland sick, self hating ranters like you will be one of the most powerful tools its enemies will have. People like you will be used to tarnish perfectly ordinary decent Irish Catholics with the type of mental puke you pour out on these pages."
That's what the pharisees said in their way to Jesus in his time, didn't they? And He forgave them, as I forgive you too ezigboututu. (Must be something that happend in his childhood.).
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Post by hackenslash on Nov 9, 2008 20:09:07 GMT
Dear Redmond, Your explanation defines in it's entirety the very reason atheism exists, because of the devil's power over people and their minds and hearts. Without the influence of the devil, there would be no atheists. No. If you proved the existence of the devil, or god, or any other of your mythical beings, atheism would not exist.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Nov 24, 2008 14:09:43 GMT
I am amused at Hackenslash quoting Eric Blair aka George Orwell, who himself had bad experiences with the occult - this is one of the reasons he used a nom de plume.
Do I understand theology correctly in assuming that it was the devil who tempted our first parents (however they may be understood) and brought sin in the world. So in that case, if there were a specifically Christian God, but no devil, man would perhaps not have fallen and this forum would not exist.
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