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Post by hibernicus on Sept 19, 2012 21:27:45 GMT
Fr Zuhlsdorf discounts rumours which are going the trad circuit (I have seen them in print in the REMNANT, for example) that a "hybrid Mass" rite is going to be introduced next year with the aim of replacing both EF and OF with a single Mass rite which would represent the OF as it "should have been" (i.e. with more obvious continuity from the EF). He points out that it would take years to prepare propers for all the saints canonised since John XXIII's time alone: wdtprs.com/blog/2012/09/a-couple-rumors-going-around-the-trad-circuit/ To be honest, I am inclined to think that such a hybrid rite as the norm might be a good idea (provided EF and OF were not suppressed but remained available for those who want them). I have been struck by the oddity of having different saints' feasts on the same day in the two calendars, and - as some of the exchanges above with Shane will testify - I am increasingly convinced that there is a strong case for having the Liturgy of the Word (including the Propers) in the vernacular as the norm.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Sept 20, 2012 11:33:52 GMT
The principle of reorganising the calendar is not a bad thing. The manner in which it was done in 1969 was haphazard. It had a particular impact on some orders. For example, Ss Dominic, Thomas Aquinas and Catherine of Siena were all moved, sometimes displacing other Dominican saints - St Catherine replaced St Pius V. St Therese of Lisieux jumped forward three days. St Monica went from 4 May to 27 August - already I have touched on three of the four orders of friars. The question is where is the rationale for this type of thing? If the moves were arbitrary, the traditional calendar is a better model; if there is a reason for these, we should hear about it.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 20, 2012 18:19:46 GMT
I think they tried as far as possible to put the saints on or close to the day of their death, rather than displacing them some days forward or back to make room for more prominent saints - this is still done but it's minimised as far as possible. Thus ST Therese of Lisieux who died on 30 September was 3 October in the old calendar and is now 1 October, closer to her date of death; St Jean Vianney was 8 August (and is now 4 August, his actual date of death); St Dominic died on 6 August which is the Feast of the Transfiguration - since that takes precedence he was formerly moved to 4 August and is now on 8 August to make room for St Jean Marie Vianney (see above).
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 27, 2012 14:14:03 GMT
Today's calendar divergence is an example of the change I mentioned above. St Vincent de Paul actually died on 27 September but because this was the feast of the early Christian physicians and martyrs Cosmas and Damian he was assigned instead to 19 July. (I do not know the significance of this date but presume it commemorates some significant event in St Vincent's life.) The new calendar moved St Vincent to 27 September on the grounds that he is much better known (at least in the Latin Rite) than SS Cosmas and Damian and so should take precedence. As my work allows me some flexibility I try to attend OF as well as EF Masses where there is a feast of major significance (or a particular devotion of mine) in the OF calendar, so after 8 am Mass for SS Cosmas and Damien at St Kevin's I made my way to St Saviour's for 11 am Mass for St Vincent. I must say this highlighted what for me is one of the major advantages of the OF over the EF - the use of the vernacular in the Propers and Readings makes it much easier to grasp how these relate to the particular saint being commemorated (in this case they emphasised St Vincent as preacher, founder of the Congregation of the Mission, as much as/more than the charitable work which we also associate with him). The Mass was said very reverently by an elderly Dominican and it was edifying to see that though he walked slowly and with difficulty he was still concerned to offer the Sacrifice and preach to the people. He added a brief commentary on St Vincent after the Proper and on the significance of the Readings before each of them; this can be irritating if done badly, but he was brief and relevant. May God lighten his burdens through the intercession of St Vincent, and of the physicians Cosmas and Damien.
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Post by hibernicus on Oct 7, 2012 21:25:31 GMT
This Sunday at St Kevin's the choir sang all four verses of "Hail Queen of Heaven" as a recessional. They sang all four verses, which I've never heard done before. (I have read the full version in books.) I think this is a good idea, because the full text follows the course of a whole life and ends with heavenly hope (ending with verse 2, as usually done, can have a slightly threatening air). I noticed that many of the congregation sang along with the first two verses but there was a noticeable falling-off when it came to singing the third and fourth. Here are the full lyrics for anyone who wants to learn them: Hail, Queen of heav'n, the ocean star, guide of the wand'rer here below: thrown on life's surge, we claim thy care; save us from peril and from woe. Mother of Christ,star of the sea, pray for the wanderer,pray for me.
O gentle, chaste and spotless maid, we sinners make our prayers through thee; remind thy son that he has paid the price of our iniquity. Virgin most pure,star of the sea, pray for the sinner, pray for me.
Sojourners in this vale of tears, to thee,blest advocate,we cry; pity our sorrows,calm our fears, and sooth with hope our misery. Refuge in grief, star of the sea, pray for the mourner, pray for me.
And while to him who reigns above, in Godhead One, in Persons Three, the source of life, of grace, of love, homage we pay on bended knee, do thou, bright Queen, star of the sea, pray for thy children, pray for me.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 7, 2012 21:54:07 GMT
Thanks Hibernicus for sharing that with us. That hymn is played most Sundays at my NO parish and I always wondered what the last two verses were like.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 5, 2013 9:38:43 GMT
It's a pet hate of mine that priests believe they have the authority to omit the creed on solemnities. This is particularly agravating on the Annunciation, when not only is the creed to be said, but the faithful are supposed to genuflect in the piece relating to the Incarnation, as per the practice in the older liturgy.
But the reason I so exercised now is that I attended morning Mass last Saturday (29 June, Ss Peter and Paul) in St Mary's, Drogheda where the celebrant was the outgoing PP, Mgr Denis Nulty, Bishop-elect of Kildare & Leighlin. He too omitted the creed on a feast that is supposed to emphasise the unity of belief with the Church of Rome in which our local churches are in communion. And this wasn't because of time, as there was plenty of time for hymns and bidding prayers. It shows the quality of liturgical formation in Maynooth just over 25 years ago (the bishop elect is celebrating his silver jubilee this year). Well, Kildare & Leighlin isn't looking forward to a liturgical giant, but in the new bishop's favour, there were nearly 100 people attending the 10 am Saturday morning Mass in a town where there are several Saturday morning Masses (I went to St Peter's 10.30 Mass where later where there was a slightly smaller crowd the same morning and I know the 11 am Mass in the Augustinians is a big draw as it is a Mass for the dead). So anyway, a gripe about the liturgy with a glimpse of practice in one of Ireland's larger towns on a Saturday morning.
But btw, the place to go on Saturday in Drogheda is the 11 am Mass in Holy Family, Ballsgrove (Meath diocesan side) - if you get the curate, Fr Tony Gounoude (French name). He does the OF very well. If you've time, the Benedictines in Stamullen do the EF at 10 am, but they're a little out of the way. On First Saturdays, the EF takes place in Mellifont Abbey at 3 pm.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Mar 25, 2014 8:51:10 GMT
It's a pet hate of mine that priests believe they have the authority to omit the creed on solemnities. This is particularly agravating on the Annunciation, when not only is the creed to be said, but the faithful are supposed to genuflect in the piece relating to the Incarnation, as per the practice in the older liturgy. But the reason I so exercised now is that I attended morning Mass last Saturday (29 June, Ss Peter and Paul) in St Mary's, Drogheda where the celebrant was the outgoing PP, Mgr Denis Nulty, Bishop-elect of Kildare & Leighlin. He too omitted the creed on a feast that is supposed to emphasise the unity of belief with the Church of Rome in which our local churches are in communion. And this wasn't because of time, as there was plenty of time for hymns and bidding prayers. It shows the quality of liturgical formation in Maynooth just over 25 years ago (the bishop elect is celebrating his silver jubilee this year). Well, Kildare & Leighlin isn't looking forward to a liturgical giant, but in the new bishop's favour, there were nearly 100 people attending the 10 am Saturday morning Mass in a town where there are several Saturday morning Masses (I went to St Peter's 10.30 Mass where later where there was a slightly smaller crowd the same morning and I know the 11 am Mass in the Augustinians is a big draw as it is a Mass for the dead). So anyway, a gripe about the liturgy with a glimpse of practice in one of Ireland's larger towns on a Saturday morning. But btw, the place to go on Saturday in Drogheda is the 11 am Mass in Holy Family, Ballsgrove (Meath diocesan side) - if you get the curate, Fr Tony Gounoude (French name). He does the OF very well. If you've time, the Benedictines in Stamullen do the EF at 10 am, but they're a little out of the way. On First Saturdays, the EF takes place in Mellifont Abbey at 3 pm. Went to Mass this morning for the Annunciation, this time in Clarendon St, and guess what? No Credo, let alone the mandatory genuflexion. Nor did I get a Credo for the feast of St Joseph on 19 March last Wednesday (the celebrant in the rural parish church I was in also left out the Gloria, wore purple vestments and used the readings of the day, but yet used the preface proper to the feast of St Joseph which indicated the importance of the feast - God help us). Every Sunday is a solemnity, as are all the holydays of obligation in a given place - which why St Patrick's Day is celebrated so solemnly during Lent in Ireland. But the universal calendar designates several other solemnities in the course of the years. These are not compulsory, but they are to be celebrated as Sunday, if they occur during Lent or Advent or on a Friday, they over-ride the obligation to fast or abstain from meat (or the alternative duties under the present dispensation). These days are (from memory) Mary, Mother of God (1 January); St Joseph (19 March); Annunciation (25 March); Sacred Heart (movable); Nativity of St John the Baptist (25 June); Ss Peter and Paul (29 June). Some of these are holy days of obligation elsewhere, and some holy days of obligation in Ireland are in the same position as these elsewhere. There are other solemnities particular to areas or orders - St Andrew is a solemnity in Scotland on 30 November and the Augustinians keep St Augustine's Day on 28 August as a solemnity. The patronal feast of the parish is a solemnity there; a parish church dedicated to St Brigid for example will have 1 February as a solemnity. The rule is however, these days have the creed and the priest can't leave it out, though if St Patrick's, St Joseph or Annunciation occur in Holy Week or Easter Week, they are transferred outside them and the obligations and privileges associated are kept on the designated day.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Apr 16, 2014 20:07:32 GMT
I'm often surprised at how respectful and serious-minded people ARE at Mass. Especially compared with how informal and irreverent people are in many other contexts. I rarely encounter any chatting during the liturgy, or people checking their mobile phones, or sucking sweets or sipping Coke, or stepping onto the altar without bowing, and I've never heard somebody address the priest unless he had invited it, or unless he had made an obvious mistake that needed correction. I don't think any of this should be taken for granted. Most people I see at Mass, even if they are dressed in tracksuits or if they come in late, or are very young, are visibly prayerful and solemn.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 1, 2015 20:45:16 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 4, 2015 21:02:33 GMT
On a thread about the display of American football insignia at Mass, one commenter says he has often seen the tricolour displayed in the sanctuary of Irish churches, in the same way that American churches display the US flag in their sanctuaries. (Apparently this practice derives from WW2 as a means of praying for the troops - I didn't know that, I always assumed it was a vaguer expression of patriotism.) I don't think I've ever seen an Irish church with the tricolour on display in the sanctuary. Am I just unobservant? www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/catholic-church-seahawks-mass/#post-comments
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Post by Ranger on Feb 5, 2015 15:34:21 GMT
Ive never seen it myself; Ive always thought of it as an American peculiarity.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Feb 5, 2015 16:02:15 GMT
One rarely sees a tricolour hanging anywhere in Ireland, never mind in the sanctuary at Mass! Seriously, I can't recall ever seeing one anywhere in a church, ever.
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Post by hibernicus on Feb 13, 2015 20:52:09 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 28, 2015 19:51:20 GMT
I was at an OF Mass in St Saviour's Dominican Church in Dublin this morning and I noticed the priest made a point of keeping his thumbs and forefingers pressed together after the Consecration (which is associated with the EF - it's meant to guard against the loss of any Eucharistic particles). He also extended his arms in a cruciform manner at the Consecration, which was a feature of the old Dominican rite (St Dominic was very interested in the physical postures of prayer). An interesting straw in the wind?
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