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Post by Noelfitz on Aug 24, 2008 11:57:47 GMT
At Mass different people do different things, whether they are priests or the congregation. So I have a few queries.
1. Should the congregation kneel or stand from the beginning of Mass until the readings?
2. Should one stand or kneel at the altar rails to recieve communion?
3. Should priests allow the congregation to give the sign of peace?
4. Should one receive at the altat rails of at the gap in the middle?
5. On receiving should one say Ah-men or Aye-men?
6. Should the ministers say "Body of Christ" or "The Body of Christ"?
7. Should Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist take the ciboria from the tabernacle and replace them after communion?
8. Should extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist consume the Host immediately it is given to them or wait and all ministers consume at the same time?
9. Should Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist pass the chalice to each other to receive?
10. Should one bow or genuflect on entering and leaving a pew (or bob or nod)?
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Aug 24, 2008 21:50:24 GMT
At Mass different people do different things, whether they are priests or the congregation. So I have a few queries. 1. Should the congregation kneel or stand from the beginning of Mass until the readings? At the Extraordinary Form we kneel until the Epistle. At the Ordinary Form it seems to vary from one diocese and even on parish to another. I always kneel. 2. Should one stand or kneel at the altar rails to receive communion? Always kneel, and receive on the tongue. Standing and receiving in the hand give credence to the idea that it is a meal, not a sacrifice. 3. Should priests allow the congregation to give the sign of peace? In the Ordinary Form it is their choice, but I find it distracting and false. 4. Should one receive at the altar rails of at the gap in the middle? At the rails if possible. 5. On receiving should one say Ah-men or Aye-men? Ah-men. Ay-men is the American pronunciation. 6. Should the ministers say "Body of Christ" or "The Body of Christ"? "The Body of Christ", as far as I know. 7. Should Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist take the ciboria from the tabernacle and replace them after communion? No, but they usually do. 8. Should extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist consume the Host immediately it is given to them or wait and all ministers consume at the same time? Wait and do it together. 9. Should Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist pass the chalice to each other to receive? No. 10. Should one bow or genuflect on entering and leaving a pew (or bob or nod)? Genuflect when entering the pew at the start of Mass and when leaving at the end. One should also genuflect always when passing from one side to the other in front of the Blessed Sacrament if the Tabernacle is on or directly behind the altar in its traditional position.
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Post by Noelfitz on Aug 25, 2008 17:50:00 GMT
Michael Thank you for your reply.
Essentially I agree with all your conclusions.
I do not really worry about the slight variations in practice, as they are not done in any negative way.
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Post by Noelfitz on Aug 26, 2008 19:47:03 GMT
There is a new parish priest where I go to Mass. He seems excellent and has been welcomed very warmly. He claims he serves two kingdoms, the kingdom of God and of Kerry.
Recently he has asked Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist to distribute Communion while standing in front of the altar rails.
Is this unusual?
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Aug 26, 2008 21:33:37 GMT
How fortunate you are that your church still has altar rails. It must be one of the few that the iconoclasts did not manage to destroy. There is probably no rule forbidding him from doing this, but it sounds like a device to make it seem as though the altar rails no longer exist. Why not ask him?
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Post by Noelfitz on Aug 27, 2008 4:23:38 GMT
Michael,
Thank you for your reply.
Life is too short, so I will not ask him.
He has only started in the parish.
After the communion was distributed to those outside the rails he went back to give communion to those kneeling at the altar rails.
Perhaps with time, things will settle down.
In this parish every priest has his own way of doing things, so Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist must adapt.
The former PP took the ciboria from the tabernacle and gave them to the Extraordinary ministers. However at the 9:15 daily Mass the Ministers used to take the ciboria from the tabernacle.
To me it is not important, once there is reference and faith.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Aug 27, 2008 19:23:13 GMT
After the communion was distributed to those outside the rails he went back to give communion to those kneeling at the altar rails. Fair enough; by the standards of the Ordinary Form that is a good. I misjudged him. To me it is not important, once there is reference and faith. Yes but a harmless innovation so often opens the door to much worse things. I'm still haunted by an episode of "liturgical dancing" I saw a couple of years ago.
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Post by cornelstown on Sept 19, 2008 19:17:26 GMT
I am not sure Michael G if you have read the general instruction of the roman missal which is availabe at veritas, but it seems to me to state very clearly that standing is the proper position from the beginning of mass until the liturgy of the word. Adaptions to the mass may be made by the CONFERENCE of bishops but I am not aware that the bishop may alter this by himself. I have yet to consult someone more knowledgable about this but it would seem like a liturgical abuse to allow the laity to kneel before the liturgy of the word since the GIRM nowhere seems to allow for it. But it would be a small one. The more appropiate term would be extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion ( not the Eucharist - It's a long story) AS for bowing and genuflecting. You bow to the altar but genuflect for the tabernacle. Thus if they are in the same direction as in most churches you genuflect but if apart from one another then a genuflect for the tabernacle and bow as going by the altar would be appropiate. Catholic answers did a wonderful questions and answers section on liturgical abuses which is at www.catholic.com/library/liturgical_abuses.aspFor the Irish modifications you would need to consult the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, but there is very little difference as far as I could see.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Sept 19, 2008 20:45:16 GMT
The general instruction of the roman missal which is availabe at veritas seems to me to state very clearly that standing is the proper position from the beginning of mass until the liturgy of the word. Adaptions to the mass may be made by the CONFERENCE of bishops but I am not aware that the bishop may alter this by himself. I have yet to consult someone more knowledgable about this but it would seem like a liturgical abuse to allow the laity to kneel before the liturgy of the word since the GIRM nowhere seems to allow for it. But it would be a small one. I am not familiar with the GIRM but I have no doubt that you are correct. Wherever I go in Ireland, however, there seems to be some local fad or innovation. A recent nuisance here in Ferns is the congregation taking it upon themselves to say the prayer after the Our Father aloud with the priest. The more appropiate term would be extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion ( not the Eucharist - It's a long story) Yes, you are right. My apologies for inadvertently supporting a dangerously misleading term.
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Post by cornelstown on Sept 20, 2008 22:26:15 GMT
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Post by mrsreneoriordan on Nov 19, 2008 16:01:34 GMT
Is it now the case that we (the laity) have to all have degrees in theology and be experts in liturgical norms. And when we are quite sure that what is going on at Mass is wrong should we approach the priest and let him know that he made a mistake. And at the same time I feel that they need our support so much more now than ever before! The confusion is fierce! - Rene
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Nov 19, 2008 20:16:04 GMT
Indeed they do need our support. But many of them do what they do because they know no better. It's what they were taught and what they see others doing. There is strong interest among younger priests in the Extraordinary Form because they were never really told before that beauty was not only important but perfectly possible in the Mass. Priests need encouragement rather than correction. We don't need degrees to do that. We just need to use our own judgment; to question, courteously and not aggressively, what we strongly feel to be out of place; and to guide them towards sources of information and support like the Latin Mass Society of Ireland at www.latinmassireland.org.
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Post by faithful on Nov 20, 2008 18:59:46 GMT
Indeed they do need our support. But many of them do what they do because they know no better. It's what they were taught and what they see others doing. There is strong interest among younger priests in the Extraordinary Form because they were never really told before that beauty was not only important but perfectly possible in the Mass. Priests need encouragement rather than correction. We don't need degrees to do that. We just need to use our own judgment; to question, courteously and not aggressively, what we strongly feel to be out of place; and to guide them towards sources of information and support like the Latin Mass Society of Ireland at www.latinmassireland.org. "The society is composed predominantly of lay members drawn from every age group and walk of life, but also includes a number of priests who minister to all who "continue to adhere with great love and affection to the earlier liturgical forms" www.latinmassireland.org/The Irish Latin Mass Society organise Masses and pilgrimages from time to time. Their role is not to form or train priests. Yes, they had workshops for priests to learn how to celebrate the traditional mass but the priest needs to be formed in a proper seminary with a proper Catholic philosophy and theology with of course a great spiritual life . Many priests are ignorant of basic doctrine. A young man needs to be sent to a proper seminary and not to the LMSI. The role of a seminary and a Latin Mass Movement are different. It is the responsibility of the local Bishop and seminary to ensure good priests not the LMSI.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Nov 20, 2008 22:07:01 GMT
... the priest needs to be formed in a proper seminary with a proper Catholic philosophy and theology with of course a great spiritual life . Many priests are ignorant of basic doctrine. A young man needs to be sent to a proper seminary and not to the LMSI. The role of a seminary and a Latin Mass Movement are different. It is the responsibility of the local Bishop and seminary to ensure good priests ... I agree completely. The formation of many priests (good and holy men with the best of intentions) has been seriously defective in the last thirty years. But that is a bigger question. What I was suggesting is that the LMSI and other groups can help some of those priests to overcome the shortcomings of their formation.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Nov 25, 2008 11:49:22 GMT
Does Faithful recall two proverbs:
The best is the enemy of the good; and
It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness.
Right now I am unaware of any group other than the LMSI are doing anything in the direction of forming priests - whether supporting Irish students studying for the trad priesthood or providing courses in saying the old liturgy for priests in Ireland. EDI have even refered priests to LMSI courses.
If the faithful (pardon the pun, bud, but I don't like the term laity. I'm thinking of the French term laicisme a bit much) take the attitude 'it's not my job', the church will just collapse.
I remember reading church history years ago - I think in Medieval Ireland and after the author dealt with bishops, clergy and religious, he had a section entitled 'laity' where he remarked there was not much written on the laity even though the Church would look pretty ridiculous without them.
This is the point which marks me out from a lot of trads and why I shy away from the SSPX. If being a lay man means 'pay, pray and obey', then count me out. And to look at lay role models (to use a in-term for what we call saints in the Catholic church) - St Thomas More, Blessed Frederic Ozanam, Venerable Matt Talbot, Venerable Frank Duff - their Catholicism was much broader than that (Frank Duff even took on Fr Denis Fahey before Archbishop McQuaid because Fahey was leading people into anti-semitism and using theology to justify this).
And though the liturgy is the preserve of the clergy, it is not exclusively so and never was - from the time Simon of Cyrene carried the cross and Veronica wiped Our Lord's face.
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