Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 13, 2009 11:57:02 GMT
Correct, but absolutely irrelevant. Vernacular celebration of the liturgy became near universal in the wake of the Council and has been established in practice to a degree that it cannot be undone. Pointing at the document now is as useless as proverbially bolting the stable door when the thoroughbred stallion has gone.
That's your opinion. Even a superficial reading of Church history will show that after periods of decadence and disobedience come reforms in line with what the church desires.
Cornelstown, if you want to tell me my opinions, would you begin by reading the rest of my posts. The vast majority of my contributions on this forum have been in chronicling and reporting on the fortunes of the EF in Ireland. I also have more to say than anybody else on the state of the Eastern rite Catholicism in Ireland. I also have tried to iniate discussion on liturgy in Irish. Your contribution so far has been to promote OF in Latin. Fine. Its a perfectly reasonable cause. I have just pointed out that is is a comparatively lost cause. I know the OF Latin Mass in Dublin draws a lot more worshippers that the EF Latin Mass (incorrigible trads: its true - more people go to the OF Latin in the Pro-Cathedral than the EF in St Kevin's and the SSPX Masses in St John's Mounttown combined). But that's largely because in it is in the Pro and the Palestrina Boys' choir are singing (and they make the Lassus Scholars sound like the Lassus Squallers, as the Dublin wits call them). I don't have figures for St Brigid's in Belfast, but that is the sum total of OF Liturgy in Latin in Ireland. The outreach of the EF Latin has been much more impressive, and this trend is reflected in other countries too. I would never claim, though, that this represents the Church reforming itself.
this has been the pattern after many councils. We are coming out of a reactionary phase now but over the next 50-80 years we will gradually see a return to the language of the church.
The Council of Trent did not exclude the possibility of vernacular liturgy or the canon of the Mass being said allowed or many of the other things introduced by Luther and Cramner. It mere affirmed Latin in the Mass and the silent canon and other aspects of Catholic tradition. That was taken as force of law. Trent also envisaged ordinary laymen, typically married men, being conferred with the minor orders of acolyte, exorcist, lector and ostarius to assist in parish liturgy. This never happened. These roles were taken up by younger boys and this is now seen as the rule. I would not regard this as disobedience. Nor would I regard the use of the vernacular as being so, when its use has been confirmed by the Supreme Pontiffs from Paul VI on.
You cannot show me that complete vernacularisation is what the church desires, no matter how strongly you state it.
I have never stated that, nor do I wish to state it. I simply am telling you what 99.999...% of our readers see - all Popes, all Primates, Metropolitans and ordinaries of the Western Church have used liturgy in the vernacular since 1971. Are you going to tell me they do not represent what the Church desires.
Will we see a complete return to latin ? probably not, but a balancing out at least.
Some dose of reality. But balancing out need not mean more OF Latin.
As the pope explains, in his letter which accompanied Summorum Pontificum 'In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress but no rupture'
He continues 'what earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considere harmful. It behoves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church's faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place'
He continues 'what earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considere harmful. It behoves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church's faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place'
Benedict said this long before he became Pope. But OF Latin represents something which has been little more than a transitional form in liturgical development. It never had a broad-based following.
If you see a potential following - go ahead by all means. You'll achieve more by a little work than a lot of talk.
If you want to found a Latin Liturgy Association of Ireland, I'll even join. I won't be active, but will send a sub. I dare you.