Post by Michael O'Donovan on Apr 22, 2008 18:11:03 GMT
Most of the enthusiasm for the "Spirit" of Vatican II nowadays seems to be found among priests, religious and laity who are in their sixties. "Renewal" and "reform" are no longer the catch-cries. There seems to be more vigour and determination among Traditionalists or the "reform of the reform" movement (if it can be called a movement).
So were the Council and its aftermath dominated by the mood of the Sixties and contemporary intellectual fashions, which are now old hat for anyone under fifty? What will endure, what will wither away and is there anything that should be actively discarded?
St Michael the Archangel, defend us in the hour of battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, thrust Satan down to Hell and with him all the wicked spirits that wander through the world for the ruin of souls.
A lot of the so-called Spirit of Vatican II was copied uncritically from the surrounding culture. However, some of the apparently crazy innovations have turned out to be remarkably useful. Look at the whole "subsistence" question, in Lumen Gentium no 8 which seems to say that the Church of Christ minimally exists in the Catholic Church. Then when you look at it more closely like www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/subsistitin.HTM or www.ewtn.com/library/Doctrine/subsistit.HTM you realise that it's actually a very strong statement about the exclusive identity of the Catholic Church with the Church of Christ. So will bits of V2 wither away? Yes but not necessarily the bits that we think!
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 19, 2008 9:34:10 GMT
To put things in non-philosophical language, even in that of business or secular politics, the Vatican Two project is currently being defined, somewhat slowly. At first it was associated with the liberal era bursting through in the 1960s, including stuff like the sexual revolution (eg in the reaction to Humanae Vitae). Yet in spite of what some radical traditionalists have said, it was an authorative council, and we are currently looking at the real Vatican Two emerging. Remember, when St Oliver Plunkett came to Ireland in the 1670s, he was trying to apply many of the decrees of the Council of Trent from over a hundred years before in this country for the first time.
Michael, I believe Pope Benedict made statements recently to the effect that Catholic's are somewhat confused regarding ecuminism in the sense that the protestant communities are not churches, they are merely communities for social gathering and support and discussion to seek out the presence of Christ, however, one cannot find the presence of Christ without the Eucharist and none of the protestant communites have the true presence of Christ, he is merely a symbol to them. Catholics become confused when they imagine that protestants are no different than Catholics and blur the true meaning and purpose of ecuminism which is to bring the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist to protestants and other faith beliefs as well. Furthermore Pope Benedict is redesigning the music directories to restore the Liturgy toward true Catholicism. In education the Pope has decreed that education must be Catholic. Obviously the reason Vatican 11 has become so confused is because of the profound protestant influence on the Catholic church and it's members. To remain truly Catholic one needs to accept the suffering of Christ in his own physical members which is very difficult to endure for many who wish to avoid suffering and so many who were originally Catholic turn toward protestant beliefs and behaviors because the suffering is not existant there. Many in the Catholic church actually believe and live a protestant lifestyle while still claiming to be Catholic. This is the primary reason for the apparant failure of Vatican 11.
I think the bulk of Protestants and Catholics in the West actually live a secular lifestyle.
Askel, I agree with your impressions, the USA is about 75% protestant and of the 25% that is Catholic according to polls do not believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. America is considered by the Vatican to be a missionary country, same as communist nations. I am posting for you to read from the Vatican the statement on the scandal of the One, True Church.DECREE ON ECUMENISM UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.(1) Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called "ecumenical." Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God's Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God.
Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 18, 2008 9:07:40 GMT
I think we can get carried away with various aspects of the Council. I think the Council correctly identified that Protestantism internationally was on a downward spiral and no longer represented a threat to Catholicism, but it missed the point that a new enemy was emerging in the face of western secularism, particularly in Europe, North America and the Antipodes. Paul VI discovered this with a vengeance after Humanae Vitae, JPII was diverted due to his role in the end-game in the Cold War and BXVI is the first pope making an adequate response to the new enemy.
This is a 'Call to Action' Puppet Mass on Youtube.
I would not be too much worried about these poor lost (and deeply misguided) souls. Just look at the average age line of the congregation: the immobile crucifer is (in the theological sense) "sacramental" of the decrepitude and degeneracy of this kind of liturgical farce. On the other hand, the wristy thurification probably bespeaks even deeper degeneration.
I believe he is Rémy de Roo, retired Bishop of Victoria in Pacific Canada.
This one was appointed at a young age to carry forward the "reforms" of the Second Vatican Council. That fact that he came from French Canada to a totally English speaking diocese didn't matter much. For the best part of 40 years the good Rémy set about devastating the Catholic Church in Victoria reducing it to ashes having applied a policy of total slash and burn.
As you see, he hasn't quite gone away and the poor remnant of the Catholic Church in Victoria are in recovery from the terrorism practiced on them by this lunatic.
margaretann: Is anyone hanging out white and yellow bunting for the Popes visit this year as we did for the last Popes visit.
Apr 1, 2018 15:57:13 GMT
maolsheachlann: I hadn't planned on it but it's a good idea.
Apr 4, 2018 12:52:39 GMT
maolsheachlann: I remember our parish priest complaining about the lack of flags for the Eucharistic Congress.
Apr 4, 2018 12:53:02 GMT
Magus123: I don't know what to believe about Medjegorje now. I was there in 1989. I saw the Priest and 2 of the visionaries. Is it real?
Apr 23, 2018 2:17:30 GMT
Magus123: Please, talk to me.
Apr 23, 2018 2:18:56 GMT
Young Ireland: No Magus, it is not. Anything miraculous happening there is the result of people's faith and not the apparition.
Apr 23, 2018 18:18:29 GMT
i like the nuns: i like nuns
May 19, 2018 19:56:19 GMT
Frank In: Hello
Jul 24, 2018 17:55:53 GMT
Nov 6, 2018 11:04:25 GMT
myholylandartifacts2: Definitely, the seven joys are different devotion. Yesterday I bought a beautiful handmade Rosary from holyland-artifacts.com/collections/frontpage/products/2 blessed in the Holy Sepulchre. The Rosary is mainly use by Roman Catholics while saying s
Nov 9, 2018 11:54:02 GMT
Claritas: Medjugorje ? I leave the visions / visionaries up to the Church. As for Our Lady - She is there. Go and experience the grace for yourself for a week. I was completely skeptical of Medjugorje until I did. It's an indescribably spiritual place.
Nov 17, 2018 2:53:29 GMT
maolsheachlann: Why did you go if you were completely sceptical?
Dec 18, 2018 19:36:25 GMT
woody: Medjugorje is a big hoax!
Dec 25, 2018 15:50:19 GMT
Claritas: It was not my intention to go until a series of events led me there. I'll leave it up to the Church to decide what is and is not a hoax, I can only judge what I personally experienced, and those of others pilgrims I met. My only regret is not going sooner.
Jan 16, 2019 22:58:04 GMT
Claritas: Maria, Regina Pacem, ora pro nobis.
Jan 16, 2019 22:59:12 GMT
Colmcille: Forum is all into politics of the world and mickey measuring instead of any depth of spirituality - wrong focus. No salt or light. Pray and Fast. May God bring blessings to you.
Feb 27, 2019 19:42:56 GMT
maolsheachlann: Well, that is because it is a forum. I suspect everyone who does post here prays and fasts and cultivates a spiritual life. But these are things we agree on, so it doesn't really make for discussion.
Feb 28, 2019 10:18:21 GMT
maolsheachlann: Of course, if you want to take it in a different direction you are welcome to post something.
Feb 28, 2019 13:18:15 GMT
Colmcille: Political nonsense. You don't have to disagree with the depth of Catholic spirituality, lives of the Saints and treasures of the faith in order to discuss them.
Mar 3, 2019 16:48:29 GMT
maolsheachlann: This is why I disabled the shoutbox on the Irish Conservatives Forum. People with substantive contributions to make will do so in the forum.
Mar 4, 2019 13:57:20 GMT