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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 23, 2009 14:45:58 GMT
I did something I rarely do. I read this lengthy thread from beginning to end. But it strikes me that having begun almost a year ago (30 June - 20th anniversary of the excommunications) amidst the usual predictions of imminent reconciliation, we are no nearer to any reconciliation. I glean from Fellay's interview, that we are still on the 'talks about talks' stage, which is what was going on in the North about eight years before the Good Friday agreement.
People, the SSPX do not have the luxury of taking their time over this. If they do not reconcile quickly, it will be too late. It may already be too late. Every attempt of accord so far has been thrown back in the Holy Father's face. Judging by present events, why should this be any different. It seems so far that lifting the excommunications did nothing to ease the rift at all.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 23, 2009 14:50:20 GMT
I don't know if there has been too much of a drift between St John's and St Kevin's. It's hard to judge. Many people come to St Kevin's only for the Lassus Scholars and Piccolo Lasso and don't come on other weeks. This artificially inflates numbers and collections. But St Kevin's is not the site of buzzing pastoral activity, any more than it was in the earlier locations, so one wonders what the chaplaincy involves.
But there appears to have been no marked increase in Pixie numbers either over the past year, so one wonders where things are going.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 25, 2009 13:56:43 GMT
I remember there was an argument (on this thread or another) some time back in which I argued that the Pixies were developing into an introversionist sect - i.e. they were more interested in preserving internal purity than recruiting new members and in maintaining their separate identity vis-a-vis Rome than in reconciliation. Anyone agree or disagree with this? Frankly, I'm surprised things have lasted as long as they have and I still think a split with some moderates being reconciled and the body of the SSPX becoming explicitly sedevacantist is the likeliest outcome.
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 25, 2009 14:13:36 GMT
Teh Pixies ahve been ordaining in Minnesota as well. american canon lawyer Ed PEters comments that by not explicitly excommunicating them the Church seems to be treating the SSPX more like the Orthodox than like a Catholic group - i.e. as more distant from the Churhc, not less. Any thoughts? www.canonlaw.info/2009/06/three-points-on-recent-sspx-ordinations.html
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Post by hibernicus on Jun 29, 2009 17:10:59 GMT
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Post by hibernicus on Jul 8, 2009 13:27:14 GMT
New Papal statement on subsuming of Ecclesia Dei under congregation for Doctrine of the Faith and on his hopes for reunion with SSPX. English text from Rorate Caeli
Wednesday, July 08, 2009 Motu Proprio "Ecclesiae Unitatem" - in English __________________
APOSTOLIC LETTER ECCLESIAE UNITATEM OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO
__________________
1.The goal of guarding the UNITY OF THE CHURCH, with the solicitousness of offering to all the aid for responding in an opportune manner to this vocation and divine grace, belongs in a particular way to the Successor of the Apostle Peter, who is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of the unity both of Bishops and of the faithful1. The supreme and fundamental priority of the Church, in every age, of leading men towards an encounter with God must be favored through the effort of promoting the common witness of faith of all Christians.
2. In faithfulness to this mandate, following the act with which Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, on June 30, 1988, illicitly conferred the episcopal ordination on four priests, Pope John Paul II, of venerable memory, instituted, on July 2, 1988, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei "whose task of collaborating with the bishops, with the Departments of the Roman Curia and with the circles concerned, for the purpose of facilitating full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, religious communities or individuals until now linked in various ways to the Fraternity founded by Mons. Lefebvre, who may wish to remain united to the Successor Peter in the Catholic Church, while preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions, in the light of the Protocol signed on 5 May last by Cardinal Ratzinger and Mons. Lefebvre"2.
3. In this way faithfully adhering to the same purpose of serving the universal communion of the Church also in her visible manifestation and making every effort so that to all those who truly desire unity it is made possible to remain in it or to find it anew, We have desired to widen and renew, with the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, the general indications already contained in the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei regarding the possibility of using the Missale Romanum of 1962, through more precise and detailed rules3.
4. In the same spirit, and with the same commitment of favoring the overcoming of each fracture and division in the Church and to heal a wound felt in an always more painful way in the ecclesial tissue, We desired to remit the excommunication of the four Bishops illicitly ordained by Mons. Lefebvre. With such a decision, We intended to remove an obstacle which could prevent the opening of a door to dialogue, and thus invite the Bishops and the "Fraternity of Saint Pius X" to find anew the path towards full communion with the Church. As We explained in the Letter to the Catholic Bishops of past March 10, the remission of the excommunication was a decision in the area of ecclesiastical discipline which could liberate the weight of conscience represented by the gravest ecclesiastical censure. The doctrinal questions, however, obviously remain, and, until they are not clarified, the Fraternity does not have a canonical status within the Church, and its ministers cannot exercise any ministry legitimately.
5. Since the questions which must be dealt with the Fraternity are of an essentially doctrinal nature, We have decided - twenty-one years after the Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei, and as We had planned to do4 - to restructure the Commission Ecclesia Dei, linking it more directly with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
6. Therefore, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei will be constituted thus:
a) The President of the Commission is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
b) The Commission has its own structure, including a Secretary and Officials.
c) It belongs to the President, aided by the Secretary, to present the main events and questions of a doctrinal nature to the study and discretion of the ordinary instances of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as well as to submit the conclusions to the superior judgment of the Supreme Pontiff.
7. With this decision, We have desired, in particular, to display our fatherly solicitousness to the "Fraternity of Saint Pius X" so that in the end it may come to full communion with the Church.
We earnestly invite all to pray to the Lord incessantly, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, "ut unum sint".
Given in Rome, at Saint Peter’s, on July 2 of the year 2009, the fifth of Our Pontificate.
BENEDICTUS PP. XVI __________________________ 1. Cfr Conc. Oecum. Vat. II, Const. dogm. de Ecclesia, Lumen gentium, 23; Conc. Oecum. Vat. I, Const. dogm. de Ecclesia Christi Pastor aeternus, c. 3: DS 3060. 2. Ioannes Paulus II, Litt. ap. motu proprio datae Ecclesia Dei (2 Iulii 1988), n. 6: AAS 80 (1988), 1498.
3. Cfr Benedictus XVI, Litt. ap. motu proprio datae Summorum Pontificum (7 Iulii 2007): AAS 99 (2007), 777-781.
4. Cfr ibid. art. 11, 781.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 13, 2009 14:30:50 GMT
It doesn't appear the Econe/Rome dialogue is going anywhere right now.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 3, 2009 9:51:01 GMT
I recently acquired a copy of an interesting book called BISHOPS AT LARGE by Peter F. Anson. This traces the three main lines of schismatic episcopi vagantes found in Britain in 1961 (generally deriving from the Old Catholics, with some Eastern - mainly Syro-Malabar -input) and discusses some other "independent" bishops and their churches. I was surprised to disover that from c.1915 until 1960 there was an Old Catholic bishop by the name of Columba McFall living in Belfast. (He was apparently a great enthusiast for the revival of the Sarum RIte. He ran a church goods store with his wife and family - even odder, as one would think the Church of the period would not have favoured a supplier with such activities. Apparently he did not exercise episcopal functions in Ireland, no doubt for business reasons, but he consecrated several bishops in England.) The book is quite a nice compendium of the eccentricities, varying from mild to scandalous, associated with some of these bishops. Oddly enough, some of theme combined their activities with being Anglican clergymen, as apparently the Church of England did not then treat reception of episcopal orders from another church as grounds for deprivation! Oddly enough, although it is written from an orthodox Catholic standpoint, at times rather smugly so, it has been reprinted by present-day "Independent Catholics" - i.e. liberal groups who operate their own sacramental networks using priests without faculties. Anyone who wants to know where the sedevacantists - and the SSPX, if they're not careful, are likely to wind up, should read this. The mindset of wholesale delusion, living in a dream world, and attaching oneself to whatever dodgy cause is going is very reminiscent of Bishop Williamson.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 3, 2009 11:02:05 GMT
Rorate Caeli discusses the theological dialogue between SSPX and Rome - link to full thread below. Note this comment. Bishop De Galaretta says they have turned down a canonical solution stronger than the Institute of the good Shepherd got because this would restrict their ability to denounce Vatican II doctrinal formulation. Sounds depressing. Peter Anson's book features a gentleman calling himself "Archbishop of Caer-Glow and Patriarch of Britain" who informed his followers that Papal Infallibilty was true doctrine and that they must all subscribe to it, while refusing to enter communion with the Pope. Bishop Galaretta sounds equally logical. rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/08/bishop-alfonso-de-galarreta-chairman-of.html Brian said... A sermon which Bishop de Galarreta gave on March 15 is roughly translated here: sspx-cagayandeoro.blogspot.com/search/label/Bishop%20de%20GalarretaBishop Galarreta reports that the SSPX was offered almost unconditional practical canonical solutions, which they reject. He explains: In January, on days when the decree was published we received before, of course we are offered two times higher than absolutely canonical solutions which people have accepted as priests or as fields of the Institute of the Good Shepherd. That is, we are offering solutions canonical almost unconditionally, yet reject. Why? Bishop Galarreta explains the reason that the SPXX rejects such practical solutions is because doing so would restrict their ability to confront Rome about the doctrinal “demolition” of the faith since Vatican II, which they argue is important for the Church. Because that puts us in an ambiguity as to the public confession of faith and, secondly, because it throws us into the dynamics of a purely practical arrangement that puts us in the royal order, under his command and influence. . . . we have said many times and I repeat it, since we, the successor of Monsignor Lefebvre, come into contact with Rome, made it clear that absolutely exclude a purely practical. Neither seek nor accept it or are willing to receive it. We know that it would be the end of our struggle, because how can we get down to and obey the orders of those we send them the systematic demolition of the Faith and the Church, embracing modernism and liberalism? . . . this is also our position, practically unanimous position of the fraternity, we are ready to doctrinal confrontation with Rome. We are ready to go to witness to the true faith and where we must really where you can solve this crisis in the Church, which is in Rome. . . . that is what the Pope proposes and what the Pope said. And so will include the Commission Ecclesia Dei, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, at long last recognized that the issue is doctrinal and faith, and finally agree to discuss and agreed to discuss the Second Vatican Council. That, at least to our eyes, is a big step. Looking at Tanqueray’s above opinion from a different perspective, Bishop Galarreta compares the theological discussions with Rome to David and Goliath: Nor, obviously, is beyond us that is a struggle disproportionately. Do not ignore the disparity of this struggle, which is like David and Goliath. We are very small, we have very few resources compared to everything that this institution and this machinery of the Vatican. However-and it certainly will take things very carefully and with great caution, do not believe we're going to go anyway, or in any condition. That we will go is not to say that we are willing to do it anyway. We will, as far as we can, with caution, vigilance and distrust each other. In contrast to Tanqueray’s comment, however, Bishop Galarreta is confident of the outcome will be a victory for the Catholic Faith against the liberalism and modernism of post-Vatican II theology. But then again, I remind you that it was David who won the battle, and not Goliath. And David won the battle because their cause was the cause of God. And what he was looking for its own sake or his own glory but the glory of God, and because it was in God's name-in-nomine Domini and because confidence in God. I do not see why we would have to fall into fearful attitudes, faint-hearted or half-hysterical, because they simply have to go to because of our faith wherever we have to go and where we know that will resolve this crisis. It is precisely what we are fighting for forty years to have this possibility.
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 8, 2009 15:51:50 GMT
Bishop Williamson, in his best chocolate teapot mode, echoes Bishop Galaretta on the impossibility of compromise between SSPX and the Vatican. The sneer about "purple fleas" is particularly characteristic. Looks like reconciliation with the whole SSPX is, humanly speaking, impossible. The best hope is that more of them may be won over by the Pope's display of good faith and patience. As for the holocaust-denying misogynist, let him who is filthy be filthy still - no use throwing more pearls before him. Difficult Discussions II Bishop Richard Williamson 5 September 2009 Eleison Comments CXIII What is the best outcome one may hope for, and the worst outcome one may fear, from the "doctrinal discussions" due in theory to begin this autumn in Rome between the mainstream Church and the Society of St. Pius X ? In practice the doctrinal gulf between Rome's Conciliarism and the Society's Catholicism is so fundamental (can or cannot 2 and 2 equal both 4 and 5 ?) that the "discussions" may not even begin. However, supposing that representatives of Rome and of the Society sit down together on two sides of one table, what is to be hoped for ? Short of a stupendous miracle of God, there is, humanly speaking, no hope whatsoever of the Romans abandoning their devotion to Vatican II, that Council whose letter mixes the religions of God and man while its spirit is definitely the religion of man. For over 40 years the churchmen controlling Rome have been possessed by the conviction that God's religion needs to be adapted to modern man, and nothing indicates that they are collectively about to abandon their deadly "combinazione", on the contrary. See for instance the Pope's latest Encyclical, "Charity in Truth". Therefore the most that can be hoped for on the side of the Romans is that to the Catholic Truth laid before them by the SSPX, a handful of them will react positively, most likely in private -- may they save their souls ! On the side of the SSPX, at best it will have witnessed to the Truth at the summit of the Church where it most matters, and even if on those heights it does little to no apparent good, still one may hope that an open account of the "discussions" presented afterwards to all Catholics of good will may reinforce their grasp of that doctrine by which Catholics are Catholics, and strengthen their Catholic common sense that, naturally and supernaturally, 2 and 2 make 4 and nothing else. What we may fear on the contrary is that this primacy of doctrine may be blurred amidst the charms of the Roman autumn. "He who lies down with Roman dogs gets up with purple fleas", says a proverb (invented by a friend). The temptation for the SSPX, especially if Rome waves both the stick of further condemnation as well as the carrot of recognition in front of the still scorned donkey's nose, will be to glide over the doctrinal gulf and settle for some kind of "practical agreement" whereby the SSPX, already being very nice to Benedict XVI, would, for instance, be granted juridical status within the mainstream Church in exchange for an at least tacit understanding to stop attacking its Conciliarism. However, any such understanding would be the beginning of the end, not of the defence of the Faith but of the SSPX's defence of it, because as old-fashioned Communism knew, it should never fight Catholics over doctrine, where Catholics are strongest. Rather its strategy was to propose any kind of practical agreement whereby the Catholics would pass over the doctrine and just co-operate in action with the Communists. As Communism always knew, the rest would follow... Kyrie eleison. London, England thoughtactioneire.blogspot.com/
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 9, 2009 14:02:57 GMT
So Credo has some function....we can read the nonsence Dickie Williamson is spewing out without logging into his blog.
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Post by guillaume on Sept 10, 2009 7:24:21 GMT
(you should open another thread Hibernicus for this one).
Anyway this phrase : He who lies down with Roman dogs gets up with purple fleas, had chocked many. On the other Forum in which I intervene, the Father number two of the IGS, Institute of the Good Shepherd, intervened violently against this particular phrase. And the Pixies, in response, quoted that it was an irrelevant private Email. Now this "private" email, had been posted everywhere (on Angel Queen first, then copied and pasted in Forums). It is clear, that Williamson does NOT support the efforts of his Superior Bishop Fellay. It is Bishop Fellay and the SPPX who is asking for doctrinal discussions, and not the Pope ! Williamson is definitly on the verge of quitting the SPPX, even if for the Society, the lost of a Bishop, will be a tremendous lost.
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Post by guillaume on Sept 10, 2009 7:26:11 GMT
It doesn't appear the Econe/Rome dialogue is going anywhere right now. Hello ? the Discussions did not even started yet.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Sept 10, 2009 13:34:07 GMT
It doesn't appear the Econe/Rome dialogue is going anywhere right now. Hello ? the Discussions did not even started yet. And will it ever start? If it does, will it end in anything other than the pixies storming out?
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Post by hibernicus on Sept 17, 2009 17:22:28 GMT
Here is a fine example of the sort of lunacy circulating in some pixie circles. For the edifiction of its readers, Ignis ardens has dug up and posted Solange Hertz's claim that electricity is an instrument of the devil. z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=3542Here is the comment of a contributor to the now sadly dormant LIDLESS EYE INQUISITION blog, which set itself to help distinguish between authentic traditionalism and the kooks who prey on it (including such purple fleas as Bishop Williamson) Thursday, January 23, 2003 :: BEYOND LUNACY: The Remnant Disses Science and Technology (Originally posted at the DPI Bullies 'N' Bozos BLOG) The self-styled "traditionalist Catholic" publication The Remnant looks loonier and loonier the more we read its articles, as well as other drivel penned elsewhere by its key writers. It seems that back in Nov. 2000, The Remnant, through veteran house weirdo Solange Hertz, trashed modern science and technology. In fact, in her book Beyond Politics: A Metahistorical View of What Keeps on Happening, Hertz "argues" (cf., pp.47-56) that both electricity and electronics are demonic and were inspired by Ol' Scratch himself, all as part of a supernatural conspiracy to overthrow Christianty and usher in the Anti-Christ. Moreover, Hertz "reasons," the progress of modern technology overall has caused faith and the True Religion to plummet and the forces of atheism, secular humanism, and the New Age movement to flourish and take over. Hmmm. Might be time to move to Lancaster, PA, [i.e. where the Amish live - HIB] buy a horse and buggy, and take up farming. But we digress. Such twaddle is to be expected from Hertz, who, in the very same book, also endorses Geocentricity, among other long-discredited notions. Here is part of what one mainstream traditionalist Catholic --a priest no less!-- had to say in his response (The Remnant: Church vs. Science) to such nincumpoopery masquerading as "traditionalism": ...Normally, I would recommend that someone like Mrs. Hertz read Providentissimus Deus to gain a knowledge of how the Church interprets Scripture in the light of the realities of science -- but her low regard for Pope Leo XIII would probably make that a waste of time. Her failure to distinguish democracy from republican government, her identification of socialism and communism with the former, her claim that Leo XIII ordered the republicanization of Europe, and her contention that democracies and republics must separate Church and state, would likely make that Pope's writings meaningless to her. A pity, really, for Pope Leo's works are key to understanding the Church's teachings on Its relationship to the modern state. ...The Remnant is getting to be more and more of an embarrassment to traditional Catholicism as time goes on, and it becomes increasingly clear that it is a journal devoted to seventeenth century antiquarian thinking. Acceptance of the 'indult' without orthodoxy, the purposeful isolation of Catholics from the Mass, the wistful desire for monarchy, and now the denial of physical reality! HEAR! HEAR! Editor's Note: After pointing out the supreme irony that Hertz uses a computer to do her "work," one Remnant reader was told by editor Michael Matt that this was okay because Hertz (whose last name --ironically enough-- is also an electronics term designating computer processing speed) is "clear-eyed" about the devilish nature of electonics. Hmmmm. In that case, those of us who live in Washington DC should contact our city's ex-mayor Marion Barry poste-haste and procure a kilo of crack. After all, we're "clear-eyed" about the harmful nature of narcotics. :: The Curmudgeon 7:42 AM [+] Totally Servile Obsequiosam... (0) | Do You Not Love the Inquisition??? (0) :: ************************************ A link to the site archive: lidless-eye.blogspot.com/2003_01_19_lidless-eye_archive.html
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