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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 1, 2008 13:44:37 GMT
Well, Willy, where do the SSPX stand now?
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Post by guillaume on Jul 1, 2008 21:15:56 GMT
01 July 2008 Official Position of the SPPX and the "Ultimatum" This is from Father Lorans, editor of www.DICI.org, an official Website of the SPPX. Concerning the Ultimatum of Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos On June 4, 2008, at the request of Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, the Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X, His Excellency Bernard Fellay, went to Rome accompanied the 2nd Assistant General, Rev. Fr. Alain-Marc Nély. During the interview, he was given a memorandum in the form of an ultimatum, demanding an answer by the end of the month of June. On June 23, contrary to the established custom, the Italian daily Il Giornale revealed the existence of the ultimatum and, the next day, published its content in its on-line edition. In the days following, the information was broadcasted by all of the international press. Thus, to the urgency of the ultimatum was added media pressure. Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos’ document expressed five demands: besides a positive answer requested before the end of June, the Society of Saint Pius X, in the person of its General Superior, had to commit itself (1) “to give a response proportionate to the pope’s generosity”; (2) “to avoid any public comment which would not respect the person of the Holy Father and would have a negative impact upon ecclesial charity;” (3) “to avoid claiming a magisterium superior to the Holy Father’s and not to set the Society in opposition to the Church;” (4) “to demonstrate its will to act in all honesty and ecclesial charity, and in the respect of the authority of the Vicar of Christ.” We must observe that the very general -- not to say vague -- character of the demands singularly contrasts with the urgency of the ultimatum. The conditions seem to be meant to obtain an atmosphere favorable to a further dialogue, rather than imply any precise commitment on definite issues. The Society of Saint Pius X wishes that the dialogue be on the doctrinal level and take into accounts all the issues, which, if they were evaded, might jeopardize a canonical status hastily set up. The SSPX considers that the preliminary withdrawal of the 1988 decrees of excommunication would foster serenity in the dialogue. The SSPX does not claim the exercise of a magisterium superior to the Holy Father’s, nor does it seek to oppose the Church. Following in the footsteps of its founder, it wants to hand down what it has received, namely “what has always been believed everywhere and by all.” It claims as its own the profession of faith addressed by Archbishop Lefebvre to Paul VI on September 24, 1975: “Jesus Christ has entrusted to His Vicar the charge of confirming his brethren in the faith, and has asked him to make sure that every bishop faithfully keep the deposit of the faith, according to St. Paul’s recommendation to Timothy.” In a letter to Pope Benedict XVI, dated June 26, 2008, Bishop Fellay answered in this sense. Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos acknowledged receipt of the letter the next day. Until further details are available, we will make no comment. Fr. Alain Lorans Voila....... visit my blog, i post the latest regarding this issue everyday. www.catholic-perspective.blogspot.com
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 2, 2008 10:54:13 GMT
Willy,
In other words, we have been dealing with a non-story for the past few days.
Alaisdir.
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Post by guillaume on Jul 2, 2008 23:17:33 GMT
"A non Story" what do you mean ? This is a Statement from Father Lorans. Not the response as such by Bishop Fellay. It will be very interesting indeed to know it and know the response of Cardinal Hoyos. Now we must wait. It was an ultimatum regarding a serious issue. A real story. WEDNESDAY, JULY 02, 2008
Castrillón satisfied with SSPX answer SSPX will give heed to the five points From the blog of Andrea Tornielli (Vatican correspondent for Il Giornale):
I have learned from secure sources that, contrary to what has appeared in certain articles, the response of the Fraternity [of Saint Pius X - FSSPX/SSPX] to the letter of Cardinal Castrillón has not in fact been negative. The Cardinal is satisfied with it, has responded to Fellay, and has promptly delivered the letter of the Fraternity to Benedict XVI. After the deadline of the end of June, the Lefebvrists [sic] ask for time but - it seems - they will aim to respect the five points. Labels: Decision 2008
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 3, 2008 9:51:18 GMT
Willy,
To clarify:
The Ultimatum was not an ultimatum.
The reponse was not a response to an ultimatum.
The story about the ultimatum and response was not a story.
The SSPX are neither no nearer or no farther from Rome as they were this time last week nor last month nor at any other time since 30 June 1988 (though Bishop Fellay's decision regarding the new Good Friday prayer for the Jews was a set-back).
In summary, this story is a non-story.
Alaisdir.
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Post by guillaume on Jul 3, 2008 10:04:00 GMT
Willy, To clarify: The Ultimatum was not an ultimatum. The response was not a response to an ultimatum. The story about the ultimatum and response was not a story. The SSPX are neither no nearer or no farther from Rome as they were this time last week nor last month nor at any other time since 30 June 1988 (though Bishop Fellay's decision regarding the new Good Friday prayer for the Jews was a set-back). In summary, this story is a non-story. Alaisdir. Permit me to rectify : The ultimatum IS an ultimatum. The Response IS a response to the Ultimatum and WILL have consequences. It is not the SPPX who is losing patience, but Rome. It is Rome who want to sort out the SPPX case. And It is Rome who is pushing. Trust me, I follow this recent affair quite seriously. And I am not alone. Actually it is the ED (ecclesia Dei communities, and other traditionalists-friendly movement) who are the most concerned regarding this issue. All the neo-tradis blogs are speaking about it. Nearly everyday.
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jul 3, 2008 10:14:32 GMT
If you want to rectify, then you should rectify instead of contradicting.
An ultimatum is: to this by this date or else face this sanction.
That didn't happen.
The so-called ultimatum was a vague request for clarification which drew a similarly vague response. It doesn't advance the cause in any direction.
It is not for the society to loose patience with Rome - it is charity on Rome's part that the society continues to operate outside it, in spite of some very generous offers.
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Post by monkeyman on Jul 3, 2008 22:14:49 GMT
Does anyone know what the predominant mood is among the priests of SSPX, or among their lay adherents? Don't know about the priests. About B Williamson, of course, for him, it is a NO. For B de Gallaretta : This is from Rorate Caeli blog : The essential part of the Sermon pronounced by Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta, of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX), for the ceremony of ordinations which took place this morning in Ecône: The ultimatum of the Cardinal: to call this an "ultimatum" is to say too much. It is, for us, a desire to alarm us, to build pressure for a purely practical agreement. This way which they wish to impose upon us is a dead way and we will not follow it. We cannot commit [engager] to betray the profession of Faith nor to let ourselves be signed up for a demolition venture. Our response to the Holy Father is thus to follow the steps with the known prerequisites and a doctrinal discussion. This will produce this answer: either a pause or a stagnation in our contacts with Rome, or a new condemnation - and we ask ourselves what -, or a withdrawal of the excommunications. RORATE note: Let us wait for the actual text of the official response of the FSSPX, which will appear in due time. Note to Askel : Start to believe it is not a rumor ! A letter had been sent to Cardinal Hoyos. We know pray and wait. Regarding the reactions of the Faithful of the SPPX : their reactions, for some of course, is quite disgusting. While i understand their love for the SPPX, they still reject and nearly hate the CC. They actually do not want to hear about this ultimatum. They are really angry about it. They don't pray or do not ask for it via blogs or forum. While most of the members of the ED are praying strongly FOR the SPPX and FOR B Fellay. Regarding me, the decision of B Fellay, will be a definite yes or no regarding my adherence and sympathy to this Traditional Movement. I was recently at the Chartres - Paris Pilgrimage. I also hoped to organize the Irish Chapter for next year. I Hope for the Yes, means B Fellay agreeing to sign the letter from the Vatican. While, now, I do not expect this to happen. Personally, this decision will have consequences. I do not think i am alone regarding this. God Bless ! As I said before...while these 4 men are still alive (save Divine intervention in their souls) the Society of St Pius X founded by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Bishop Emeritus of Dakar and Tulle will never fully submit and pledge obedience to the Bishop of Rome. For those outside the society (and within the Church!) they seem like Protestants- one should not overlook this impression. Also their "raison d'etre" is disappearing as more and more Extraordinary use Masses are celebrated-but their politics is what chiefly defines them now.-NO to Rome, NO to the civil authority placed over them by God, NO to womens slacks...and yes to Jew-hating, Nazi-sympathizing, holocaust denying, yes to rampant paranoia, yes to fascist political parties, unholy alliances with neo-pagans, white supremists etc -Williamson is guilty by the way of all this...at some of these political meetings he even goes about in lay-clothes and likes to be called Richard. Willy for the love of God dissassociate yourself from these people...I must commend Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos though for his charity...a true prince of the Church.
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Post by monkeyman on Jul 3, 2008 22:26:33 GMT
If you want to rectify, then you should rectify instead of contradicting. An ultimatum is: to this by this date or else face this sanction. That didn't happen. The so-called ultimatum was a vague request for clarification which drew a similarly vague response. It doesn't advance the cause in any direction. It is not for the society to loose patience with Rome - it is charity on Rome's part that the society continues to operate outside it, in spite of some very generous offers. Well when Pope Benedict moves the Papacy from Rome to Econe then they might have something to talk about....we've all hoped this would get resolved for years...the SSPX despite what some people think needs the Catholic Church alot more than it needs them. I hope I'm wrong in my prediction and I won't be placing any bets...if they don't do a deal now they never will...and they'll just become the 21st centuries "Old Catholic". In fact theres an interesting thought...say they never reconcile? if one projects into the future and imagines what the SSPX will be like in 100year...women priests? contraception? divorce?...i'd say they'd imbrace all these.
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Post by secusia on Jul 4, 2008 19:41:59 GMT
Sorry Monkeyman, what do you mean? What on earth makes you think that the SSPX would embrace women priests, contraception and divorce? I'm curious as to your logic here.
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jul 4, 2008 20:48:52 GMT
Sorry Monkeyman, what do you mean? What on earth makes you think that the SSPX would embrace women priests, contraception and divorce? I'm curious as to your logic here. I can't speak for Monkeyman, but I'm reminded of the "Old Catholic Church" which went into schism after Papal Infallibility was proclaimed as a doctrine, and is now more or less indistinguishable from liberal Episcopalianism.
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Post by mcallister on Jul 5, 2008 15:00:56 GMT
Ah, but the SSPX are not in schism - we have Cardinal Hoyos' word for that!
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Post by falconer on Jul 5, 2008 20:21:25 GMT
Ah, but the SSPX are not in schism - we have Cardinal Hoyos' word for that! Vatican, SSPX in talks: Dialogue toward reconciliation will continue between the Society of St. Pius X, which operates St. Mary’s Academy and College in St. Marys, and the Vatican, Catholic bloggers report. Earlier this month, Andrea Tornielli, the Vatican reporter for the Italian daily Il Giornale, revealed the contents of the Roman Catholic Church’s latest overture to the SSPX, which clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2008/07/vatican-sspx-still-talking-sources-say.html
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Post by secusia on Jul 5, 2008 23:31:25 GMT
Seems to be some confusion here.... Cardinal Cassidy clarified in 1994 "The situation of the members of this Society [SSPX] is an internal matter of the Catholic Church." Now, if the SSPX were in schism, how could it be an "internal matter"? Schism, by definition, cuts one OFF from the Church. No-one denies that the SSPX refuses to obey some orders. (Sometimes true obedience means refusing to carry out the order given - see St. Teresa of Avila on this point. She tells the rather hilarious story of nuns who had to be restrained from committing sins because they were ordered to sin by their superiors - e.g. the nun who was ordered to go jump in a well.) However, even truly sinful disobedience does not make a schism. Schismatics must refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with her members subject to him. Now, if I refuse to acknowledge the Pope as my superior and the Vicar of Christ, I am indeed schismatic; but if I refuse to obey him in a particular matter (such as fasting if he makes a law to that effect) I commit a sin of disobedience, but I don't repudiate his authority. Again, the SSPX don't say that they are the only Catholics (which would make them at least suspect of schism.) They simply say (a fact we all know) that many of the laity and hierarchy are at least in material error. So where's the schism?
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Post by monkeyman on Jul 6, 2008 18:10:44 GMT
Sorry Monkeyman, what do you mean? What on earth makes you think that the SSPX would embrace women priests, contraception and divorce? I'm curious as to your logic here. I can't speak for Monkeyman, but I'm reminded of the "Old Catholic Church" which went into schism after Papal Infallibility was proclaimed as a doctrine, and is now more or less indistinguishable from liberal Episcopalianism. Thanks Michael for making my point...re Old Catholics...set oneself adrift from the barque of Peter and all these funny notions will soon be embraced...SSPX would be no different.
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