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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 24, 2008 10:55:26 GMT
I am convinced that a discussion on the above is necessary, subject to the usual conditions with respect shown to both sides of the divide. Let me start here by inviting comments.
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Post by guillaume on Jun 24, 2008 11:10:44 GMT
I am convinced that a discussion on the above is necessary, subject to the usual conditions with respect shown to both sides of the divide. Let me start here by inviting comments. You maybe aware than a rumor based on an article published in the Italian paper "il Giornale" is saying that the Vatican is sending an ultimatum to the SPPX for her to sign... The Ultimatum of the Vatican to Lefebvre's rebels: peace, if you accept the Council by Andrea Tornielli In exchange, they will receive a Prelature. But they must choose before June 28. ROME -In the relations between the Holy See and the Lefebvrians the countdown has begun: by this 28 June, the Fraternity of St. Pius X, founded by the French Archbishop who would not suffer the post-conciliar liturgical reform, will in fact have to decide whether to accept the five conditions proposed by the Vatican in order to reenter into full communion with Rome. Some days ago, the superior of the Lefebvrians, Bishop Bernard Fellay, met with Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, president of the Commission Ecclesia Dei, which deals on behalf of Benedict XVI with negotiations with the traditionalist group. Fellay, who previously had written to the Pope asking for the revocation of the excommunication imposed by John Paul II in 1988 to Lefebvre and the four new bishops that he had wanted to consecrate without the consent of the Holy See (among them Fellay himself), has received a letter with the five points set by the cardinal [Castrillón] and will discuss them during the next chapter of the fraternity, to be held at the end of the month. Never like at this moment the negotiations have come close to an agreementwhich would heal the mini-schism which had been created now two decades ago, allowing the full reentering of the Lefebvrians into the Catholic communion. Among the points that the Holy See asked to sign there would be, according to the indiscretions gathered, the acceptance of the II Vatican Council and the declaration of full validity of the Mass according to the reformed liturgy: two conditions that Lefebvre had already signed with the then cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1988. The Vatican, for its part, offers the traditionalist group a canonical framework similar to that of Opus Dei, namely a [personal] "prelature", which would allow the Fraternity to continue its activities and to train its seminarians. The march of rapprochement was started in 2000, when the Lefebvrians made a Holy Year pilgrimage to Rome. It was followed by a brief audience granted by Pope Wojtyla to Monsignor Fellay and the beginning of the long and laborious negotiations with Cardinal Castrillón. Many things have changed since then however. The Lefebvrians asked, before making any step towards an agreement, that the old preconciliar missal, which fell into disuse after the liturgical reform, be liberalised. The new pope, Benedict XVI, particularly sensitive to these issues, a year ago published the Motu proprio declaring the full citizenship of the old Mass allowing it in every parish, in fact stripping the bishop of the possibility of prohibiting it. The application of the new papal directives has not been easy, there are a lot of cases of resistance - some blatant, as is known - but it is beyond doubt that by declaring the existence of an extraordinary Roman rite (the old one) and an ordinary (the reformed one), the Pope has authorized throughout the Church and without restrictions the celebration of the Tridentine Mass. Moreover, Ratzinger has reintroduced the Cross at the centre of the altar, has begun to distribute communion to the faithful kneeling, has restored ancient vestments: all signals that go in the direction of emphasizing the continuity of tradition. Conditions this favourable for a reentering into full communion will in all likelihood not repeat themselves. Many faithful, now that they have obtained the Mass according to the ancient rite, do not understand why the Fraternity does not definitively make peace with Rome. The Lefebvrians have come to realize what is happening, even if Fellay has some problems of internal resistance. The choice is whether to make an agreement and reenter into full communion with the Holy See, or rather to remain a small separate body with the risk of turning into a little sectarian and uninfluential group. (Translated by Gregor Kollmorgen, for The New Liturgical Movement). [ITALIAN ORIGINAL]
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on Jun 24, 2008 11:15:08 GMT
The message I take is that the SSPX either unite quickly, accepting the Council, or fade into oblivion.
However, the SSPX are not going to accept the Council without extensive clarifications, nor are they going to fade into oblivion.
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Post by guillaume on Jun 24, 2008 11:46:27 GMT
Why the rush ? For sure the SSPX won't accept some part of the Council. But I suppose the Vatican is well aware of that. I am def for the SSPX to return to Mother Church. Maybe this ultimatum was given long ago, in secret, and it is just revealed now. They just have 4 days left, if all this is truth. We myst pray for the SPPX.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 24, 2008 13:50:42 GMT
In cases like this, deadlines don't work. And the Church has long enough experience to know that. I don't believe the article.
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Post by guillaume on Jun 24, 2008 13:58:42 GMT
The article is truth. Go to Rorate Caeli blog or New Liturgical Movement blog. We will all be fixed on 28 june. Also in those blogs, you will be able to read the reaction of Bishop Fellay. Also a number 2 of the FSSPX confirmed it.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 24, 2008 14:20:55 GMT
I don't take either blog as gospel; and if it were true I doubt Bishop Fellay, Fr Schmidberger or any responsible SSPX would be so indiscreet to blab about it in public - that would be more Dikcie Williamson's territory.
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Post by guillaume on Jun 24, 2008 23:37:39 GMT
I don't take either blog as gospel; and if it were true I doubt Bishop Fellay, Fr Schmidberger or any responsible SSPX would be so indiscreet to blab about it in public - that would be more Dikcie Williamson's territory. Well, mister Saint Thomas, not only it is on those blogs, and many others, but also on the blog of the iitalian journalist, and an official Press agencies. Also this is the 5 conditions of the letter written by Cardinal de Hoyos : Pontificia Commissio "Ecclesia Dei" Conditions which result from the meeting of June 4, 2008, between Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos and Bishop Bernard Fellay 1. The commitment to a response proportionate to the generosity of the Pope. 2. The commitment to avoid every public intervention which does not respect the person of the Holy Father and which may be negative to ecclesial charity. 3. The commitment to avoid the claim to a Magisterium superior to the Holy Father and to not propose the Fraternity in contraposition to the Church. 4. The commitment to display the will to act honestly in full ecclesial charity and in respect for the authority of the Vicar of Christ. 5. The commitment to respect the date - fixed for the end of the month of June [2008] - to respond positively. This shall be a condition necessary and required as an immediate preparation for adhesion to accomplish full communion. [Signed] Darío Card. Castrillón Hoyos Rome, June 4, 2008
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Post by guillaume on Jun 24, 2008 23:43:22 GMT
The big difference is no commitment to approve VII has to be done by SPPX. But to respect the Pope and to avoid a superior Magisterium. Plain communion with the Pope is the only commitment that SPPX has to do. If She agree she will be integrated as a Prelature, like Opus Dei. OF COURSE, the combat will continue, but at least the excommunications will be erased.
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Post by Askel McThurkill on Jun 25, 2008 10:21:45 GMT
Willy,
I read the blogs. I am not convinced - references were vague.
What happens if the SSPX DON'T comply with the rumoured ultimatum?
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Post by guillaume on Jun 25, 2008 11:11:47 GMT
Willy, I read the blogs. I am not convinced - references were vague. What happens if the SSPX DON'T comply with the rumoured ultimatum? Come on now. It is not a rumor anymore. They even published the letter. Anyway, If Bishop Fellay says no, i won't bet one euro on this, we come back deep into the crisis. SPPX will still be "outside" the church, while claiming the excommunications to be erase. I think Vatican will publish another Letter regarding the Society, but not as friendly as it is now. SPPX might even being considered as Heretic... Some SPPX faithful would be tempted to turn toward Sedevacantism. Bishop Fellay will have to justify his decision. Sounds a disaster to me. I cannot sleep at the moment because of this ! Recently we had the NO vote. This time we need the YES ! ;D
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Post by Michael O'Donovan on Jun 26, 2008 18:09:31 GMT
Does anyone know what the predominant mood is among the priests of SSPX, or among their lay adherents?
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Post by monkeyman on Jun 26, 2008 23:48:15 GMT
There is between no hope and Bob Hope chance of this happening while those 4 men masqerading as Catholic Bishops are alive....gee I'm being very un-PC....hmmmm
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Post by monkeyman on Jun 26, 2008 23:50:41 GMT
Given that most of their adherents are somewhere between being formal sede-vacantists, nut-job conspiracy theirists and donatists i can only hazard a guess-any spelling mistakes mollaga?
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Post by guillaume on Jun 27, 2008 12:40:36 GMT
Does anyone know what the predominant mood is among the priests of SSPX, or among their lay adherents? Don't know about the priests. About B Williamson, of course, for him, it is a NO. For B de Gallaretta : This is from Rorate Caeli blog : The essential part of the Sermon pronounced by Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta, of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX), for the ceremony of ordinations which took place this morning in Ecône: The ultimatum of the Cardinal: to call this an "ultimatum" is to say too much. It is, for us, a desire to alarm us, to build pressure for a purely practical agreement. This way which they wish to impose upon us is a dead way and we will not follow it. We cannot commit [engager] to betray the profession of Faith nor to let ourselves be signed up for a demolition venture. Our response to the Holy Father is thus to follow the steps with the known prerequisites and a doctrinal discussion. This will produce this answer: either a pause or a stagnation in our contacts with Rome, or a new condemnation - and we ask ourselves what -, or a withdrawal of the excommunications. RORATE note: Let us wait for the actual text of the official response of the FSSPX, which will appear in due time. Note to Askel : Start to believe it is not a rumor ! A letter had been sent to Cardinal Hoyos. We know pray and wait. Regarding the reactions of the Faithful of the SPPX : their reactions, for some of course, is quite disgusting. While i understand their love for the SPPX, they still reject and nearly hate the CC. They actually do not want to hear about this ultimatum. They are really angry about it. They don't pray or do not ask for it via blogs or forum. While most of the members of the ED are praying strongly FOR the SPPX and FOR B Fellay. Regarding me, the decision of B Fellay, will be a definite yes or no regarding my adherence and sympathy to this Traditional Movement. I was recently at the Chartres - Paris Pilgrimage. I also hoped to organize the Irish Chapter for next year. I Hope for the Yes, means B Fellay agreeing to sign the letter from the Vatican. While, now, I do not expect this to happen. Personally, this decision will have consequences. I do not think i am alone regarding this. God Bless !
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