Here is another forum discussion. The ex-member marker whose statements I post below is clearly Franco Noonan (see earlier post). I include link to a hostile Youtube video comparing Clemente to Saddam Hussein, Hitler and cult leaders
. Note the Irish Palmarians have a Canadian priest
AFTER THIS POINT "I" IS MARKER/FRANCO NOONAN, NOT HIBERNICUS
www.belowtopsecret.com/forum/thread306649/pg1Hey Guys,
I was wondering have any of you guys heard or have direct experience with The Palmarian Catholic Church.
This is a splinter Catholic group based in the Desert of Spain just south of Seville.
In the late 1960's three young girls witnessed an apparition of the Virgin Mary above an Olive tree in a field just outside the village of Palmar De Troya, from this incident many "Seers" came and a large congregation gathered to pray etc.
Among these people came two Spanish individuals, Clemente Dominguez y Gomez (an accountant with an erratic history) & Alonso Manuel Corral (a shrewd Lawyer). These two guys in particular Clemente rose to become the leaders of what transformed from a congregation of religious people into a full blown Cult with Clemente crowning himself Pope (Gregory XVII) with Corral as his Secretary of State (Fr Isidore).
Clemente claimed visions, prophecies & staged stigmata &Y other scared wounds, he also lost his eyes in a car crash & was blind from 76 until 05 when he died & now Corral heads it up as the new Pope (Peter II)
Does anyone here know anything of these guys? I was brought up in this Cult and have personally met Clemente & Corral & know of the corruption that lies within the heart of the organization & wish to strike up a conversation regarding this subject.
If anyone has any questions please ask away - or if anyone was a member of the Plamarian Church please leave comments, you can check these guys out on wikipedia for more info.
They also called themselves The Order of the Carmelites of the Holy Face.
...
I grew up in the Cult until i was 16 and left.
The Group was headed up by Clemente, the charismatic prophet who recieved regular visions from God, telling him about the future World War & his role in defending the Earth from the Anti-Christ.
Corral was the guy who took care of all their propaganda, money raising & basically traveling the world to lay Palmarian members to ask for money (I later found out he took this upon himself because he enjoyed the "red carpet
" treatment he received & liked to get away from the HQ in Seville.
The Cult was in its Heyday in the 1980's, after which membership began to decline, bishops who Clemente consecrated were expelled on his orders & people began to leave.
My personal experience involved traveling to their Basilica in the Spanish Desert & meeting each first hand, I've also witnessed how this Cult has torn families
apart, including my own.
The Basilica is huge, all built on peoples donations - he became a minor infamous figure of ridicule in Spain & their has been a few Spanish investigative reports on the Cult.
They have members from around the world, in particular, Germany, Ireland & the USA.
Any more questions ask away
...
Do a search on them to get more info - I cant get links to work!!!
...
Their past is crazy, Clemente tried to commit suicide when he was 18 by throwing himself from a train, him & Corral shared an office together before they became Cult leaders.
They consecrated many bishops & built a movement, mass recruitment drives through the 80"s.
Unfortunately Clemente drank most of the money that was handed over (looking at the Basilica they built you can only imagine how much that was!!) while Corral was responsible for laundering the rest through some shady deals with Spanish cons.
These guys basically took over & created this Cult from the ground up, its only now (with Clemente's death) that it is falling apart.
Its amazing the info on these guys, you could make a movie from it but sadly it is at the expense of others that these stories exist.
...
Well I'll give you an example, Clemente was a known homosexual & while denouncing homosexuals from his pulpit he was blatantly asking vunerable bishops to stay back after evening meals to perform sex acts on him.
This went on for years, with all bishops in full knowledge of what was happening but because Clemete called himself a "poor sinner" they accepted it as God "chooses the weak to confound the wise".
This type of talk was typical of the man & palmarians in general, their techniques for brainwashing were very effective.
In 2000 several bishops were expelled from the order, Clemente claimed that their had been an assaination attempt on him & Satan had infiltrated the Church (be careful, nowhere is safe)
I later found & spoke to one of the bishops (the number two name on the list Clemente released, 18 in all) he told me that they grew concerned about Clemente.
They communicated their concerns to each other about his mental stability (let me mention that at this point they still believed in him, only that he may have been losing it in his later years) in secret until Clemente got wind of it & he and the other 17 were expelled & an elaborate story of assasins in the night with Clemente foiling a plot on his life was concocted to display Clemente as the saviour once again & ensure that if the bishops talked they would not be believed as Satan had infiltrated them & their stories of homosexuality in the Church was a lie.
(he made several "jokes" of how a blind man, himself, sen through this demonic plot)
Several of the bishops were spat on on the street by palmarians who they considered to be friends when they tried to approach them to tell them the truth.
It was only after their expulsion when Clemente claimed to have recieved a vision from Mary praising him for his courage that most of these poor souls realized they had been conned all along & ALL the visions had been false.
I have copies of his sermons where he boasts about how he foiled the plot - its actually funny to read, but tragic.
He also re-wrote the bible and had reguar heavenly visions where he put on a show to the palmarian public, one of which I have on video, its so bad your thinking how do people actually believe this stuff (but I did at one point).
had heard of the the use of drugs but have never got confirmation. to my understanding there was none (at least in the 1980's to 1990's)
Although Clemente was suspected of suffering from epilepsy of the frontal lobe, which causes "visions" and behavior of importance and Messiah tendencies. One of the ex Bishops who knew Clemente well was presented with 5 characteristics of someone who suffers from frontal lobe epilepsy and he pointed out that Clemente possessed all 5.
That for me as an interesting point because it raises the question did Clemente really believe his own teachings? I do know that in the early 90's he talked of giving it all up to go live with his mother!!! He said he doubted his own legitimacy!
As for their doctrine, they started out fairly normal extreme Catholics but by the end Clemente was talking of martydom - luckily he died before he brought it any further! Hi,
...
The offshoot started after 3 girls witnessed some type of vision in a field (interesting to note they severed all ties with the Palmarian Church & Clemente & are still living in Spain, occasionally they talk to the Spanish press)
Many faithful came to pray at the spot, similar to Knock in Ireland or The Lady of Fatima - Clemente & Corral along with another Spaniard (I only know him as Fr Elias, more on that guy later) came along when they heard of this place in the South where the Virgin Mary was appearing.
Clemente soon began to have visions of his own and many followed him although some of the original Seers (original leaders for want of a better word) accused him of false visions from the start, he expelled them. He was apparently a very charismatic person & many fell under his spell, look at the photo where he still has his eyes [REPRODUCED IN ANOTHER POST ON THE THREAD ON THE ORIGINAL SITE- HIBERNICUS], you can catch a glimpse of the power or attraction they may have had to a vulnerable person.
As for his stigmata, I have a photo of him lying on the ground drenched in blood from his wounds, during that night the Spanish media were present & they claim to have seen Clemente with a shard of glass in his hand, next minute he collapses down bleeding from wounds that magically appeared, the Spaniards tried to tell the believers that were present but unfortunately very few of them spoke Spanish as they were from Ireland, Britain, Germany etc.
Also an ex-Bishop told me he witnessed Clemente with wounds on his forehead that only a blind man with a razor could make, very quickly & not convincing.
As for re-writing the Bible, he said Christ had told him to correct the false information & Clemente dictated the Palmarian version through his Visons with Christ, his team of writers scribbled every word, when there was a disagreement Clemente would go into his room come out 10 mins later & claim Christ came to him with the answer, always the answer was the one he argued for, hence suspicions were raised. ...
reply posted on 6-10-2007 @ 10:37 AM by marker3221
ps. All I know of Clemente wanting to leave is what I said, that he talked openly of leaving to live with his mother (who incidentally was not a follower of her son & described him as "disturbed" to the Spanish media)
All funding came from donations, several people were very rich & gave vast amounts, I heard of one Boston woman who in her will left millions (I'm not sure of the exact figure but I think it was somewhere between 10-20 million, I could be corrected on that figure though)
At their height one could only imagine the amount of money they brought in, as well as the Basilica, statues, robes etc; Clemente & his closest confidants went out almost every night & spent thousands on having a good time, apparently one restaurant in Seville added an extension specifically to accommodate them.
There are also stories of Corral walking around with plastic bags full of notes, putting them through all their bank accounts, at this point it was not illegal to have several bank accounts in the same name, they are also tax-exempt as a religious organization, they had to remove the word Cult from their teachings to gain this title. They actually used to use the term in describing themselves.
...
In response to your question
Did they develop special ascetic practices?
Heres is a list of rules that Palmarian's have to follow:
1. Woman may not wear trousers.
2. Shorts are banned
3. It is forbidden to wear any shirt or similar garment with short sleeves.
4. Sleeves can only be rolled up for the duration of any work such as washing dishes etc.
5. Females must wear skirts no shorter than two fingers width below the knee.
6. Tights are banned as they are classed as mens attire. Female teens and adults may only wear stockings, female children only socks.
7. Female babies cannot wear all in one baby suits.
8. Shirts and blouses must be buttoned to the neck.
9. You cannot play any sport that requires you to wear short sleeves or shorts.
10. Visiting beaches is banned.
11. All voting banned. e.g. Local and general elections, referendums etc.
12. Visiting and using swimming pools is banned.
13. Visiting night clubs is banned
14. Denim cloth is banned, therefore wearing jeans is banned.
15. Listening to popular / modern music is banned.
16. Watching boxing matches is banned.
17. Attending non-Palmarian religious services such as weddings, funerals, christenings etc is banned, for all non Palmarians even family.
18. Males are banned from dying or bleaching hair
19. Males cannot wear ear jewelry or other face jewelry.
20. Receiving organ transplants is banned.
21. Leaving or providing organs for transplant is banned.
22. All contraception is banned.
23. Disco’s are banned.
24. Later introduced in addition to rule 16, All functions associated with non Palmarian religious services such as wedding breakfasts, evening functions, i.e. social functions before or after, christenings, weddings, funerals etc are banned you cannot attend even if function is family or relatives.
25. Later above rule no. 5 was changed to increase the length of skirts below the knee from 2 to 4 or 5 fingers width.
26. Children must be told Christmas presents are from parents and not Santa Claus as he doesn’t exist
27. New Bible introduced, any copies of any other bibles must be burnt. This bible was authored in Spain and has many changes in comparison to the standard bible.
28. TV programs that have people or cartoon characters outside the Palmarian dress code may not be watched. In effect this is most television, it would encompass news, documentaries, etc. etc.
29. No social contact with any persons not dressed to the Palmarian dress code. This in effect means virtually all non-Palmarians.
30. Nobody allowed in the home if not dressed to Palmarian dress code except workmen.
31. In work, contact with non-palmarian co-workers must be kept to a minimum, i.e. only talk to when necessary to carry out the job and no social chat.
32. Only religious books approved by Palmar are allowed all others banned and must be burnt. This in effect means virtually any non Palmarian authored book is banned.
33. Any photos/images with priests who have left the order must be burn/destroyed.
34. Religious films are banned.
35. All prayers and hymns not contained in the Palmarian missal are banned
36. Birthday candles on birthday cakes are banned.
37. Contact with anyone including relatives who are living with partners and not married is banned. This would include all marriages outside the Palmarian Church since the early 1980's as these marriages are considered invalid.
38. Throwing coins in a fountain/well/water is banned.
39. Children must be removed to another room from their classes where non palmarian religious instruction is given.
40. Horoscopes are banned
41. Movies containing references to magic are banned.
42. The neckline of a shirt or blouse etc must when worn be at least 2 fingers width above the breast bone.
43. Christmas trees are banned.
44. Images of Santa Claus are banned
45. Giving or opening presents on Christmas day (25th December) is banned.
46. Christmas presents must be given and opened on the feast of the Epiphany
...
Regarding the Car accident, there were 3 or 4 people in the car late at night, Clemente in the front passenger seat, when the car was overtaken by "demonic forces" and went off the road & hit a tree or pole, the glass from the shattered windshield lacerated Clemente's eyeballs & they had to be removed. The other in the car emerged unhurt as far as I know. Other than his loss of sight he had only minor injuries that healed quickly.
The whole thing is Vaticanized so that the faithful (who defected to Palmar in the light of Vatican II) would believe that Clemente was carrying on the "True Church" Thats how he hooked his followers.
As for the stigmata I totally agree with your observations, he's showing it off with pride for the onlookers & cameras. That particular wound came from the incident with the shard of glass that I mentioned earlier.
He wasn't too happy about his eyes though, he never got to see his mini empire for himself, he used to get drunk and go into depression over his blindness, I've been told.
On a last note he claimed to the Palmarians that the Virgin Mary appeared to him during Mass & for his great service offered him his eyesight back, but good oul' Clemente said No. He would wait a little longer for penance.
Convenient huh?
Oh yes,
he offered everyone that they would be spared in the coming war with the Anti-Christ, where he would become a Military Leader & Emperor & lead Gods army to victory, take back Jerusalem, march into Moscow & convert them all to Palmar, Oh and of course, Moses himself would come down from the Planet of Mary to fight alongside him.
...
They say all mass in Latin, everything.
They say the Rosary everday & have other Masses that the devised, every Easter & Christmas they have a week of praying where all the faithful from around the world congregate at the Basilica. This is how I met Clemente, Corral & other Bishops.
The Basilica is surrounded by a huge wall with only one gate in, this is guarded by men with machine guns & guard dogs (I'm not kidding here, I seen it myself).
In my opinion & experience with these guys they are very dangerous & just prior to Clemente's death his sermons were becoming more militant & martyrdom references were commonplace. I shudder to think what he would have done if he had lived.
Corral (now Pope Peter II) I'm not sure about, I don't think he likes being Pope, he preferred to run the show from behind the scenes.
I don't know about the long sleeves rule as that has been in place for years, I can remember when I was a kid I could wear shorts, tee shirt & go to the beach etc; then suddenly we couldn't anymore, so I'm not sure about the reasoning.
The denim rule I know about as this was quite recent (since around 2000) but I suspect the others followed a similar pattern.
An ex-bishop who was still a member at the time told me the story, apparently a guy (a palmarian of course) came up to the Basilica one day wearing really tight Jeans, a Bishop (who I have been told was not a nice character, a power tripper) did not like this at all and went straight to Fr Isidore (Corral) to complain; Corral heard the story & immeditaly banned ALL denim items of clothing - period, no question no going to see for himself.
Corral goes to Clemente to inform him, Clemente then got up on the pulpit & declared all Denim banned as it was offensive to God & God instructed him to ban them, but it wasn't God, it was Corral who did it on a whim.
I suspect that this is where most of the rules came from, snap decisions & tactical reasoning.
For instance, if you look at the rules concerning Palmarians & how they cannot speak to non-Palmarians unless they adhere to the Plamarian dress code, you can see that this is a very cunningly devised method of forcing Palmarians to sever contact with non-palmarians - as NO-ONE dresses the way they do!!.
So to summarize, they say - "we're not telling you you can't talk to them, you can, but only if they dress like you do" Quite a spohisticated way of severing contact with outsiders who may be able to talk some sense into them don't you think, without actually saying it out straight?
Their quite good at what they do....
ps. in regard to your question on the baby suits, you are correct they would be considered a pantsuit & so they are banned
Hi ihp07,
Is your fmaily member still involved in the sect? What year was it Clemente visted the States? I can remember he came to Ireland when I was a young boy - apprantly he was pissed off that he wasnt greeted at the Airport (he gave the wrong flight details) then had a vision from Mary who called the Irish selfish for not greeting her messenger! The cheek of the guy - blatant lies - they were all at a different gate waiting for him!!!
But I know what you mean about kissing his ring; in Palmar itself he used to go one further - he would sit on his throne all dressed up while all the members would line up, kneel, bow & then kiss his feet.
I participated in that. Man, makes you sick to think of it...
My family will never leave, my father is too arrogant to admit he's been duped for 30 years; he would rather hold out in the faintest hope it may be true - humility is a virtue he sadly lacks.
Take Care & glad you got the vibe of the video, it is the feeling Palmar evokes; ex-members only really get it when I show them.
Thanks
Marker
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y70SDAJ8qRg...
The Irish missionary Fr Genronsius is Canadian & is a weak individual, easily led - he knows full well of what has gone on & what is going on over there but says nothing, toes the line & infects young minds with the same as his own, got my kid brother in pretty deep.
Ahh yes, I recognise your name from there all right, I orginally posted in response to James Taylor, the guy who started the thread back in 2004, my sister was the first responder I was the 2nd. There was some action here in Dublin for a while, a guy set up the support website and there were a coulple of meetings of ex-members & priests.
I will never forget the surreal nature of meeting a former priest who was in full cassock last time I had seen him out in Palmar & there he was in t-shirt & jeans and we're having a pint!! Just a normal guy - the cassock gave him the authority status.
I stopped posting after Fr Luc & the like came on the scene, they started bickering and it turned me off.
In regards to what I do, I set up a small media company, we make short films & documentaries two films have been bought by RTE (Ireland's National Broadcaster) and a documentary on skateboarders was bought by Al Gore's Current TV in the States.
We're only starting out, I've talking to Columba about the Doc but it wont be for another little while, we are so busy with trying to get established here in Ireland before we embark on such a project.
Its never far from my mind though.
I also make my own videos for amusement, two of them you have seen.
The Palmar Project will be a big task, but I'm determined that one day we'll get the story out, so at least ex-members have something to see.
Your based in the States? I hear all the Canadian palmarians left, do you know how many are left out there?
...
What happened on my end was this - my brother had gone ahead of my father to Palmar for Easter that year so my Father was at home when he got the phone call that Clemente had died.
My sister heard the conversation (one sided obviously) and my brother was openly questioning the prophecies, my Father the ever faithful, told him that it was a test from God & that they must stand firm, afterall God must sort the weak from the strong etc etc etc.
So there there was a concern there, but anymore than that I don't know.
But I do know the Palmarians explanation of the unfulfilled prophecies. Clemente died while saying mass, just keeled over and died on the spot, the Palmarians tried to say (because Clemente always said he would be crucified) that because he died while saying Mass, which is a re-creation of Christ dying on the Cross, he did in fact die as he said he would, on the cross, only it was metaphorical rather than actual.
So you see good Palmarians, he did not lie - God chose to test your faith through his mysterious ways (always a great fall back for stuff you can't explain)
They then went on to say regarding his prophecies of him going into battle with Moses, he did say this & this WILL happen, just not with Clemente, when Clemente said the Glory of the Olives he was not talking of himself, oh no, he was talking of another.
But a simple back read of his sermons clearly states in black & white that Clemente said it would be himself personally.
Now, the order came down for ALL Clemente's past sermons to be destroyed so a Palmarian doing a bit of research wouldn't uncover this massive hole in the story.
They all swallowed it. Because they WANTED it to be true & blind themsleves to the other alternative - that its all lies, lies & more lies.
And oh yes, The Anti-Christ is meant to be alive, his father is meant to be a ex-palmarian bishop & he will appear in public at the age of 30.
So they have plenty of time, I can remember being told about 13/14 years ago that the Anti-Mary, the mother of the Anti-Christ was then 16.
Where do they get this detailed info? Oh yes, God told Clemente all about it...
Excuse my sarcasm but there you go!!
But it is the beginning of the end & they know it, hence the communication lock down. How long till it ends is anyones guess, but its past it heyday that's for sure ...
I left in 1996, I stayed at home until 2005, life under a palmrian house was difficult but bearable, the last several months before I left were so unberable because of the new rules that I left of my own accord, either that or nervous breakdown, no joke...
No we weren't homeschooled we went like everyone else but weren't allowed to attned religion class (got a free period!!) or Sex-Ed (even better) or go swimming with the rest of the school (afternoon off!!) they were bonuses.
It was strange because there was another Palmarian family in our school, we didn't mix, but my brother told me there were rumors about them being in some "mad" religion. (they lived in the area, we didn't)
Of course we kept our mouths shut, if anyone asked I told them my parents were Atheist & didn't want me learning something that was bulls**t, ended up I got 2 other guys to get notes saying the same thing so we all got off religion class and bunked off together, ahh good times! If only they know huh??
I know that the Irish (at least I heard my Father saying) that some faithful wanted to go to Palmar & live in a commune, he thought it was a stupid idea & the Priest said it wasn't a good one either....why?
Because they would give up their jobs, no more donations & Palmar would have to accommodate them.
Thats not in their game plan.
That story of the woman putting her foot in the sea [AND BEING EXCOMMUNICATED FOR IT, DESCRIBED BY ANOTHER POSTER]? I know of loads like that, one woman looked at a photograph taken at a wedding and was ex-communicated and had to beg to be let back in, another fell in the street & broke her hip, she was rushed to hospital (was one run by nuns, she was in an ambulance, didn't know where she was) and was excommunicated for that, not allowed in a hospital run by the clergy, she didn't even know where she was being taken - imagine!!
There are loads of stories and many left, but the tagline always is - the weak will leave we must sort the weak from the strong. (pander to the ego of those who stay - your strong & will be rewarded, only one drawback though, you have to die first
Those new rules, I believe, were made specifically made to drive ex-palmarians who were living with palmarians out. The tact was lets make life so unberable for them that they leave on their own accord, we dont tell the families to kick them out, we do it a more calculated way. So we can always say - "We never told you to ask them to leave, they left on their own"
But we left because of the rules you made, the rules that were designed to make us leave, a calculated chain reaction.
Quite a calculated move, very effective. I must admit they are good at what they do, Gobbells would be proud!! ...
For anyone reading this thread new info has recently come to light. It seems the current Leader of the Palmarian Church Pope Peter II (Fr Isidore/Alonso Manuel Corral) has now ordered all members to donate 10% of their income to the Cult or face ex-communication.(expulsion)
Also the rumour abounds that Peter II is suffering from cancer, which is steadily getting worse, so much so he can only celebrate Mass on a Sunday.
This has been thrown into a little doubt as I heard from another source that he was quite sick but improved, however that info is older than the newer info that he is badly sick.
This may either spell the end of this Cult or it will enter into a new reign of radicalism under Fr Sergio the next in line to be Leader & apprantly a tyrant.
Sergio was not a part of teh founding three (Clemente Dominguez y Gomez - Pope Gregory XVII (dead) Fr Elias (dead) & Alonso Manuel Corral Pope Peter II)
Only time will tell where this destructive & potentially dangerous Cult is headed
...I left around around 1997 my leaving was in the wake of two of my siblings leaving before me, my faith at the point was well gone so I just took the jump & stuck to it.
I never got a call from the priest but my sister did, along with letters saying if she returned all would be forgiven etc etc. I also know all too well about the fear, the impact the theology & promises of a coming & imminent war on a young mind was incredible; catechism class & the constant sermons all served the same purpose, instill the fear & dangle the carrot on a stick in the form of salvation & heaven & you have them suckered, get them young & you have the next generation. A classic tool that has been used for centuries.
But it stays with you - what if war is coming? - bombing has started in some country, is this it?? - were they right & I wrong? All of these feelings went through. For about 2/3 years after I left I would still feel fear & guilt when I walked down to a beach!!!
Crazy what lasting affect they can have on your mind.
To answer your questiONs, yes there is a priest based in dublin & I have no problem disclosing the location - Haddon Road, Clontarf, Dublin 3, when coming from the coast 1st house on your right just after the small apartment complex, detached, enclosed with hedges & private. I still go past on the bus & see the cars outside!!
As for how many people, I would say not many, a lot have left in the wake of the severe rules introduced in 2005, how many I dont know, maybe 100, maybe less, I'd bet on less though.
I can also remember being brought to spain in 1996 (in hindsight it was an attempt to pull me back) and I had lost all faith in the theology completely, I viewed Palmar, Clemente, the faithful in a detached way & this just exposed it in my mind as a blatant falsity that I wanted no part of. That trip firmly put me on my way to leaving - ironic that it ended up doing the complete opposite of what it was meant to do - bring me back in!!!
...
The Mass the Palmarian say is first & formost the full Rosary, then there is also the Trisagion (I dont know if i spelt that correct) and teh Stations of the Cross, the short Rosary, only saying the Hail Marys, is frowned upon.
A rosary would last about an hour, Trisagion about half an hour & the Stations about 45 mins to an hour. At the end the priest would give a sermon, this could be anything for 5 mins to nearly an hour depending on the subject - always Palmarian Doctrine.
Some Bible readings (Palmarian Bible, they re-wrote it) but always, always Palmraian orientated passages etc.
Incense is used, only during Benediction. The Sign of The Cross is made constantly during Mass & all the faithful bless themselves, except they use the term "Holy Ghost" instead of the more usual "Holy Spirit". Holy Water is used in the usual fashion.
Your question about changes to shape Palmarian Doctrine, the answer is yes, absolutely, without a doubt, everywhere they could. They re-wrote the entire Bible & ordered the destruction of the "old" & false Bible that is used globally.
The feeling from Palmarian Mass? Humilty? Submission? I'm trying to remember here, I know when I acted as a altar boy I felt physically sick - no joke. More than once I had to leave the altar.
I understand that you admire the Robes & such, but take a moment to reflect where the money came from, its all theatrics, smoke & mirrors to make people feel there is a divine presence. But I do understand, some are stunning. And there is nothing wrong in asking questions, Deny Ignorance is the motto of this site
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz8Z5npgkwwhomepage.eircom.net/~palmardetroya/index.htmwww.rickross.com/groups/last_times.html