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Post by molagga on May 2, 2008 14:32:11 GMT
In the wake of the TLM celebrated in Cobh Cathedral on 25 March 2008, some had hoped that this reflected a greater openness to the Holy Father's mind concerning greater availability of the TLM. However, that expectation -or conversion- might yet prove premature.
- A request was recently made for an occasional Mass in Midleton, Co. Cork. This was requested for the end of May to conclude the Marian month. The request has been refused outright by the PP., Dean Eamonn Goold, who is quickly emerging as the main opposition to the TLM within the Cloyne diocese.
- A previous request for the TLM in Midelton was also refused by him at the end of last year. The request, which was made by a number of people, saw themselves visited in their homes by the zealous Dean in an extraordinary outbreak of pastoral visitation. So far, no action has been taken on either of these cases, but I expect that the good Dean's efforts will be soon be the subject of a hefty correspondence with Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos.
- A further request has been made for a TLM in Fermoy, Co. Cork, at the end of June. This Mass is to be offered for the Holy Father's intentions in the vigil of St. Peter and Paul's. As with Cobh, the titular PP here is the Bishop of Cloyne. Word is still awaited from his Administrator in Fermoy -it is difficult to see how an excuse can be found to prohibit a Mass for the Pope's intentions in a parish of which the PP is the Bishop of Cloyne - but we await developments.
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Post by conor on May 14, 2008 13:28:26 GMT
If the St Colman Society actually wrote their own letters to Parish Priests , instead of relying on a roman prelate they might make more headway. From what I have heard the letters have been extremely arrogant. All the letters have been the same to the PP's and administrators. In one case they sent a letter to a PP who is well known as a latin and greek scholar and had the audacity to state that if his latin was not up to scratch they would supply a priest who could say the mass in latin. I regularly attend the traditional mass in Cork and I can say that only one person of the Original St Colman's group ever attended this mass. The prelate they rely on in Rome is not known for his celebration of the traditional mass and in fact never showed any interest in it until after the MP. Another curious matter is the fact that the only known traditional priest in the diocese of cloyne has no relationship with this society. One has to ask why?
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Post by molagga on May 15, 2008 14:38:56 GMT
Don't know anything about the Roman Prelate bit but can certainly assure your that the mmbers of St. Colman's Society for Catholic Liturgy are all literate and quite capable of writing their own letters.
As for requests to Parish Priests, well, as far as we can make out, none has yet been received with open arms whether sent by the Society or by members of their respective parishes.
As for Greek and Latin, well I imagine it must be about 40 years since they stopped teaching it in the diocesan seminary which would mean that even the best of teachers are likely to be a bit on the rusty side - as anyone who actually taught Greek or Latin will tell you. WIth the shortage of priests at the moment, it is surprising that earlerly -if not retired- priests wouldn't be glad of a helping hand from younger and better trained priests.
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Post by molagga on May 15, 2008 14:51:20 GMT
... the only known traditional priest in the diocese of cloyne has no relationship with this society.... One has to ask why? It's a bit hard to believe that out of c. 150 priests in Cloyne there is only one known traditional priest. Wake up and smell the coffee, as they say in America. Anyone familiar with the place will tell you that there are lots of traditional priests in that diocese. In fact, it has the reputation of being one of the most conservative dioceses in the country. And some of its priests are well known for their articulation of a highly sophisticated orthodox theology -ask anyone who was in Maynooth with them. And as for the only known traditional priest in Cloyne not having anything to do with the St. Colman's Liturgy Society, let's not jump to hasty conclusions. The question can equally be posed in the other direction: would the Society want anything to do with him? I'm only asking. BTW, Conor, in English, Latin, Greek and Cloyne, being proper nouns are all spelled with initial capital letters. The abbreviated plural form of Parish Priests is "PPs" -without an apstrophy. "PP's" indicates a possessive singular as in the Parish Priest's kowledge of Greek and Latin! And for consistency sake if we have "Parish Priests" then we should also have "Roman Prelates" and it would not hurt (on a Catholic site) displaying a little piety by writing the word "Mass" with an initial capital letter.
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Post by conor on May 15, 2008 22:09:25 GMT
To my knowledge the members of St Colmans would not have enough lastin to write a 6 page letter to the Adm of Cobh. As for the Roman Prelate being behind the group, listen to the dogs barking in the street. If there is more than one priest who celebrates the TM where are they.The Priests of cloyne are known for their conservatism but not their traditionalism. It is interesting to note that the name of the traditional Priest did appear on the paper of St. Solman's but now it's gone.
I have heard it from good authority that he himself has made it known that he was not a member and was very angry that people where using his name without his permission. BTW if you are going to correct my grammer and spelling maybe you ought first to check your own eg bit but, where is that in the dictionary. also what a mmbers
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Post by LZ34CRH on May 16, 2008 12:07:34 GMT
I have heard a TM priest from Cloyne saying mass and his Latin is pretty shakey. As far as I know very few priests would have good Latin in the diocese of Cloyne. It is a very rural place.
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Post by 2008 on May 16, 2008 18:30:48 GMT
Possibly. He is from Dublin. This thread seem pointless.Plenty of fighting. I'm lead to believe the LMSI are to dissolve. Lack of members, lack of interest. Local interest works better than a Society who do nothing.
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Post by Damian on May 16, 2008 20:44:21 GMT
Local interest works better than a Society who do nothing. Couldn't agree more!
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 19, 2008 9:14:28 GMT
I don't believe it is good news in the Cork area that the LMSI are due to dissolve.
In the Cork and Ross diocese, the monthly Mass in Ss Peter's & Paul's is managed by the LMSI, as is the annual Mass in West Cork. The priest referred to in the Cloyne Diocese as saying the the traditional Mass (who by the way says it privately on Monday evenings in the parish church in Macroom) is a regular celebrant of these and other LMSI Masses - indeed, is he the Munster provincial chaplain for the LMSI? (Open to correction?)
It never really follows that clergy with good Latin say the Mass - I know of two relatively younger diocesan clergy in the Kildare & Leighlin and Meath dioceses with First Class Honours degrees in Latin who have never said the extraordinary form. Likewise, it may be true that most (not all) traditionalists are conservatives, but it doesn't at all follow that most conservatives are traditionalists. I do not believe it is the case - we well be waiting a very long time for either the Legion of Christ or a certain Personal Prelature to use the extraordinary form. So to look at two other relatively conservative dioceses - Meath and Raphoe - neither exactly have priests falling over each other to say the extraordinary form. The Archdiocese of Dublin can only manage four - three attached to the chaplaincy in Harrington St and Fr Smith down in Wicklow (Newtownmountkennedy - for foreign readers, yes that is a genuine place name). It is unsurprising there can be only one priest in Cloyne sticking his neck out. There is only one such priest in Armagh (whose Latin is not going to distinguish him either), there are none in either Clogher or Derry. There is only one in any of the western dioceses....I can't do a diocesan analysis. It would be unusual for Cloyne to prove the exception.
I have heard some of the dogs in Cloyne barking a Roman monsignor's name alright, while looking out at the Liffey in Dublin. As with hearsay evidence, I can comment on the fact that I heard this, but not on the truth of what I heard. But there does seem to be a number of people saying that the St Colman's Society are not acting spontaneously.
It is quite correct to say that local initiative is better than a society which does nothing, but with the exception of the Dublin chaplaincy and the Mass at Glengoole in Co Tipperary, the new regularly scheduled Masses (note I did not say once off Masses) in Belfast, in Tralee and in Newtownmountkennedy had the LMSI driving them. Not from Dublin or Limerick, but through locals involved in the organisation. My understanding is that that is what the LMSI are about.
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Post by molagga on May 20, 2008 15:08:12 GMT
To my knowledge the members of St Colmans would not have enough lastin to write a 6 page letter to the Adm of Cobh. As for the Roman Prelate being behind the group, listen to the dogs barking in the street. If there is more than one priest who celebrates the TM where are they.The Priests of cloyne are known for their conservatism but not their traditionalism. It is interesting to note that the name of the traditional Priest did appear on the paper of St. Solman's but now it's gone. I have heard it from good authority that he himself has made it known that he was not a member and was very angry that people where using his name without his permission. BTW if you are going to correct my grammer and spelling maybe you ought first to check your own eg bit but, where is that in the dictionary. also what a mmbers School around the corner time for our friend. The above should have been written thus: To my knowledge, the members of St. Colman's would not have enough Latin to write a six page letter to the Admistrator of Cobh. As for the Roman Prelate being behind the group, listen to the dogs barking in the street. If more than one priest celebrates the TM, where are they? The Priests of Cloyne are known for their conservatism but not for their traditionalism. It is interesting to note that the name of the traditional Priest did appear on the paper of St. Colman's but now it's gone. I have heard it from good authority that he himself has made it known that he was not a member (of what?) and was very angry that people where using his name without his permission. BTW if you are going to correct my grammar and spelling, perhaps you ought first to check your own e.g. bit but (sic). Where is that in the dictionary? Also what a "mmbers"? This case, I am afraid, is not limited to grammar and spelling - it's a complete lack of any comprehension of how to organise and articulate the English language. In other words, we are dealing with an illiterate. Why would anybody write a six page letter in Latin when English would be just as (if not more) effective to communicate something? Perhaps the letter was in literate English and mistaken for Latin?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 20, 2008 15:25:46 GMT
Did Molagga actually have a point in his last post other than to denigrate Conor? In another thread he suggested I might be a crank. Fair comment perhaps, but I find Conor is articulate enough.
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Post by molagga on May 20, 2008 21:19:53 GMT
The point, I thought, was clear: accuracy of expression otherwise known as the classical discipline of rhetoric - something the old school Jesuits were all trained in!
As for the scribe's being "articulate enough" ..... well, perhaps.
But, illiterate he certainly is in both Latin and English!
And, as for Alaisdir, my initial impression is growing.
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Post by conor on May 20, 2008 23:59:17 GMT
Molagga, you spend a lot of time correcting grammer. It is a good method in distracting people from the fact that your arguments re the TLM in Cork are false. You have not answered any of the questions raised I ) the PP of Midleton knew all the people that where listed by the St Colman's group.. These people assured him they did not sign the petition. I believe that it is similar to the TLM priest in that Diocese. Their names where used without their prior knowledge or consent. 2)You do not say if St. Colman's have gone to the Bishop first with their complaint. This would be the correct procedure according the the MP. 3) You have not denied that the Roman Prelate is behind the group.This is common knowledge. I have yet to meet a Priest of Cloyne who has not heard this. I have heard priests in my own Diocese of Cork & Ross say the same thing. 4) You do not seem to realise that the original group of people behind the Society are not traditionalists (except perhaps one). Therefore why all of a sudden have they jumped on the traditional bandwagon? 5) The letter to the Adm. was in Latin, which raised more suspicion of a Roman Prelate. Why the society wrote a six page latin letter? Only they can supply the answer 6) You make the claim that there is more than one Priest who celebrates the TLM. Again ,where are they? Where do they celebrate? Why does nobody know about them? Why have they not been seen at traditional events?
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Post by Alaisdir Ua Séaghdha on May 21, 2008 9:14:29 GMT
The point, I thought, was clear: accuracy of expression otherwise known as the classical discipline of rhetoric - something the old school Jesuits were all trained in! As for the scribe's being "articulate enough" ..... well, perhaps. But, illiterate he certainly is in both Latin and English! And, as for Alaisdir, my initial impression is growing. And, as I asked you in a different way in respect of another discussion, what has that point got to do with the topic of discussion of this thread. As for grammar, not all of us have the time to polish what we have written with subsequent edits. As for the designation 'crank', I believe the late Paul VI had something to say about reverting to the ad hominem argument (correct my spelling if you like, Molagga, I bow to your capabilities in the Latin tongue which are not usually very illuminating on this particular forum). To return to the point, though, Conor has important points in regard to your original statement regardless of how he phrased them or how he spelt some of the words (some people out there have to pay for internet access and don't have the leisure to correct their contributions). The points he makes are either valid or invalid. If you cannot refute them but rather carp about his spelling and grammar, I (and I imagine most other readers) will assume that his points are valid and your original post has little to stand on. It is too bad for you that the list members here are much more critical than those who tune into Father Zuhlsdorf's blog. But then again, many of us probably wouldn't show much deference to Conor's alleged Roman prelate if he were to personally contribute - but one does assume curial prelates are much too busy for this type of nonsense. Really, Molagga, citing the Society of Jesus in this generation falls flat, given that more and more trad Catholics are coming to Voltaire's conclusion that "INRI" means "Iesus non redemit Iesuitos" (Again, correct the Latin if you like - remember when Spinoza heard he was about to be 'excommunicated' from the synagogue, he sent a message to the rabbi that he would compose the relevant document in better Hebrew. Not being either a canonist or a rabbinical lawyer, I use the term analogically). Have fun, Alaisdir.
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Post by molagga on May 21, 2008 12:29:36 GMT
The point, I thought, was clear: accuracy of expression otherwise known as the classical discipline of rhetoric - something the old school Jesuits were all trained in! As for the scribe's being "articulate enough" ..... well, perhaps. But, illiterate he certainly is in both Latin and English! And, as for Alaisdir, my initial impression is growing. The points he [Conor] makes are either valid or invalid. If you cannot refute them but rather carp about his spelling and grammar, I (and I imagine most other readers) will assume that his points are valid and your original post has little to stand on. Have fun, Alaisdir. Ala-ist-dir!! Thanks for the invitation to fun. Let's hope we can rise to the occasion. 1. "The points he [Conor] makes are either valid or invalid. If you cannot refute them but rather carp about his spelling and grammar, I (and I imagine most other readers) will assume that his points are valid and your original post has little to stand on". This may represent a welcome return to logic - the sister and, dare one say, handmaiden of rhetoric, to which we have previously adverted. Hence, why even bother to carp about "points"? However, it pains one to have to point out that "arguments" are either valid or invalid - not "points". Presumably, it should not be necessary to point out this distinction to one who actually knows how to spell "grammar" (unlike Conor who could do with polishing up his script a good deal). 2. Then we have a case of "multiple assumption": " I (and I imagine most other readers) will assume that his points are valid and your original post has little to stand on". Shall we untangle this? Firstly, one is glad that Ala-ist-dir admits that he make an assumption that "most other readers" are like him. Strong stuff that and a pretty wide assumption. Can we, reasonably, assume that "most other readers" are so unreasonable? One thinks not. And, one is perfectly entitled to hold that position until contrary evidence is produced from the readers themselves. Put another way, why should we assume that "most other readers" are cranks? One has no reason to assume that! 3. One notes the following: "I (and I imagine most other readers) will assume that his points are valid and your original post has little to stand on". One has already pointed out that "arguments" are valid or invalid. Why one should want to attribute validity or invalidity to "points" is beyond one - and, dare one say, quite silly. 4. The validity or invalidity of a rhetorical argument is determined in reference to objective rules - and not, as in this case, to subjective predilections. Should you wish logically to argue, then please play by the rules of logical discourse.
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