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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 22:21:41 GMT
The actions of the perpretrators are downright despicable and they should be brought to the full rigours of the law.
The only problem is that they won't be. There is a bouncer who worked on the night talking about it, and he says that the police weren't able to do much because the prisons were full. Also, the government and media tried to cover this up, at the expense of the safety and well being of the German people. They only talked about it days later because people took to social media.
Any attempt by the extreme right to use this as political ammunition or to stir up Islamophobia is also wrong
With all due respect Young Ireland, it disturbs me how, throughout this whole crisis, there are so many people who seem more concerned with "right-wing" baddies then the actual terrorists and other degenerates. While I do appreciate the need for concern over how innocent minorities may get caught up in this, I have noticed a rather sickening trend among some people (not necessarily yourself included) who try to make the worse possible outcome of this entire situation to be the political conversion to Right wing politics by Europeans, rather than terrorist attacks and other such travesties. The thing is, for ordinary European people, having your country infiltrated by terrorists, rapists and God knows what else is a lot worse than having some far-Right group go into power.
all it will do is reinforce the belief among Arabs that Europe rejects them and thus will turn even more strongly to ISIS as defenders of their community.
In fairness Young Ireland, it's that kind of double-standard attitude that has caused this problem in the first place. Europeans are tired of essentially being blackmailed into not voicing their anger at what's going on - whether it be a terrorist attack, or a horde of sexual predators - because if they do then even more supposedly "moderate" people will become extremists. To me that's a vicious circle argument that amounts to "Don't get angry at the bad things that happen to you, or even more bad things will happen to you."
Remember that these and similar groups WANT predjudice to flourish in order to radicalise the Arab population further
Young Ireland, I absolutely refuse to believe that any truly decent human being who was ever an honest moderate would somehow see rape and murder of innocent people as perfectly acceptable. While I can understand that negative attitudes towards minority groups might make them see other people in their countries with contempt, I do not accept that if you think it's ok to then rape and murder innocent people that you were ever a moderate or decent human being in the first place.
Whereas if Muslims are made to feel an equal part of the community, it will kill the problem at its root, thus potentially preventing more terrorist attacks like the one in Paris.
We should keep in mind that there have been occasions where people who carried out terrorist attacks or joined extremist groups have supposedly come from moderate homes, were well educated, etc, etc. In these cases, trying to blame it on right-wing groups doesn't work. Even still, trying to paint right-wing groups as responsible for the existence of terrorism is just thinly-veiled excuse making. There in lies the true problem. It's the fact that when things like this happen, there are excuses made or cover-ups or whatever else. It is the insult added to the injuries that has truly made Europeans move Right. When your own government and media seem more interested in protecting groups like these to the point of suicide, rather than protecting their own people and being honest, it is only natural that people will look Right for their heroes and salvation.
The people of Europe are at breaking point. They are tired of being labeled racists, bigots, and Islamophobes. They are tired of being slandered like this, while actual terrorists and such others are protected by excuse makers. They are tired of those who cover up the atrocities being carried out, or down play it as much as possible. It has finally come to the stage where Europeans are more interested in their own well-being, rather than those of the minority groups from whence many of these wicked people came; to the misfortune of the innocent.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jan 10, 2016 17:56:48 GMT
The actions of the perpretrators are downright despicable and they should be brought to the full rigours of the law.The only problem is that they won't be. If enough pressure is placed on the government, they will. There is a bouncer who worked on the night talking about it, and he says that the police weren't able to do much because the prisons were full. Alas, that is unavoidable. The short-term solution is to release less serious criminals early to make room for more serious offenders. There's no other way in the short-term, I'm afraid. Also, the government and media tried to cover this up Evidence?, at the expense of the safety and well being of the German people. They only talked about it days later because people took to social media. That's still not enough evidence to accuse the Government of covering it up.Any attempt by the extreme right to use this as political ammunition or to stir up Islamophobia is also wrongWith all due respect Young Ireland, it disturbs me how, throughout this whole crisis, there are so many people who seem more concerned with "right-wing" baddies then the actual terrorists and other degenerates. I'm very concerned about this wave of recent terrorism. In my opinion, there needs to be an UN coalition set up for a ground war against ISIS. This is the only way to destroy them quickly without the massive civilian casualties one gets from bombing. For that however, we need the co-operation of the Muslim community, without whose help it will be much harder to prevent vulnerable Muslims being influenced by IS. While I do appreciate the need for concern over how innocent minorities may get caught up in this, I have noticed a rather sickening trend among some people (not necessarily yourself included) who try to make the worse possible outcome of this entire situation to be the political conversion to Right wing politics by Europeans, rather than terrorist attacks and other such travesties. I don't doubt that such people exist, but I'm not one of them. In fact the only people exploiting the terrorist attacks here are the far-right, who seem to be more interested in gaining support in the polls than they are in actually doing something constructive to improve the situation.The thing is, for ordinary European people, having your country infiltrated by terrorists, rapists and God knows what else is a lot worse than having some far-Right group go into power. In Ireland, we have had our own terrorists and rapists to be worrying about for decades, and an attack by dissident republicans is more likely than an attack by ISIS here IMHO.all it will do is reinforce the belief among Arabs that Europe rejects them and thus will turn even more strongly to ISIS as defenders of their community.
In fairness Young Ireland, it's that kind of double-standard attitude that has caused this problem in the first place. Europeans are tired of essentially being blackmailed into not voicing their anger at what's going on - whether it be a terrorist attack, or a horde of sexual predators - because if they do then even more supposedly "moderate" people will become extremists. To me that's a vicious circle argument that amounts to "Don't get angry at the bad things that happen to you, or even more bad things will happen to you." Not it's not, it's about keeping calm in the face of adversity (prudence is a virtue, remember) and not resorting to knee-jerk reactions that will only serve to aggravate the situation. I'm not saying that people should not be angry, I'm saying that people need to channel their anger in a positive manner. Remember that these and similar groups WANT predjudice to flourish in order to radicalise the Arab population further
Young Ireland, I absolutely refuse to believe that any truly decent human being who was ever an honest moderate would somehow see rape and murder of innocent people as perfectly acceptable. You'd be surprised, people can and do develop extremist beliefs over time. OTOH, an extremist can reform themselves: remember that St. Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion. While I can understand that negative attitudes towards minority groups might make them see other people in their countries with contempt, I do not accept that if you think it's ok to then rape and murder innocent people that you were ever a moderate or decent human being in the first place. Again, you underestimate the power of social solidarity and identity. Whereas if Muslims are made to feel an equal part of the community, it will kill the problem at its root, thus potentially preventing more terrorist attacks like the one in Paris.We should keep in mind that there have been occasions where people who carried out terrorist attacks or joined extremist groups have supposedly come from moderate homes, were well educated, etc, etc. But surely these are the exception, not the rule. In these cases, trying to blame it on right-wing groups doesn't work. Even still, trying to paint right-wing groups as responsible for the existence of terrorism is just thinly-veiled excuse making. They may not be responsible, but they are using it to push their own agenda. There in lies the true problem. It's the fact that when things like this happen, there are excuses made or cover-ups or whatever else. Not excuses, distinctions between minorities as a whole and extremists (not all extremists are from minorities btw, especially in a country with Ireland's history.)It is the insult added to the injuries that has truly made Europeans move Right. When your own government and media seem more interested in protecting groups like these to the point of suicide, rather than protecting their own people and being honest, it is only natural that people will look Right for their heroes and salvation. Do you really think that a Kremlin-like regime would be an improvement on what we have already? Their outright lies over Russian involvement in Ukraine, not to mention the fact that people like Anna Politkovskaya are mysteriously murdered without any explanation would suggest otherwise. The same goes for all the far-right parties around Europe that Russia appears to be supporting. If anything, such a move will be going out the frying pan, and into the fire.
www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-still-my-enemy/ BTW I'd recommend reading The Putin Corporation, by Yuri Feshtinsky, which gives a detailed analysis of Putin's rise to power and early presidency.
The people of Europe are at breaking point. They are tired of being labeled racists, bigots, and Islamophobes. They are tired of being slandered like this, while actual terrorists and such others are protected by excuse makers. They are tired of those who cover up the atrocities being carried out, or down play it as much as possible. It has finally come to the stage where Europeans are more interested in their own well-being, rather than those of the minority groups from whence many of these wicked people came; to the misfortune of the innocent. Again, I.S. WANT a backlash in the hope of radicalising the Muslim population further. Why would we want to play into their hands, unless we want violence to escalate. What we need is an international alliance to crush IS rapidly and to encourage Islamic leaders to preach against the use of violence. We certainly don't need silver bullets which are on the inside laced with poison, and which will only make the problem even worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 20:54:30 GMT
If enough pressure is placed on the government, they will.
I highly doubt that Young Ireland. Most likely people will be told it's too late due to the amount of time that has passed, as well as the size of the crowd involved.
Evidence?
I already told you. The story wasn't reported on until Germans took to social media to get the story out. The police tried to play down the race of those involved. One German official claimed that trying to draw a connection between the race of the people in the crowd, and the acts themselves, was not a good thing to do. That's BS. It's not a coincidence. No, I'm not saying all people who are Arabic or North African are like that, but it is a problem among them.
That's still not enough evidence to accuse the Government of covering it up.
Really Young Ireland? A horde of 1000-strong young men, sexually assaulting and attacking people in Cologne on New Year's Night, not a word of it mentioned on German news; and you think that's just an inconvenient accident? You can't seriously believe that Young Ireland.
In fact the only people exploiting the terrorist attacks here are the far-right, who seem to be more interested in gaining support in the polls than they are in actually doing something constructive to improve the situation.
Sort of like how the current people in power are only interested in covering up their disastrous mistakes so they can look good in the polls? I don't see them exploiting anything at all Young Ireland. Feel free to tell me how raising awareness and protesting what's going on constitutes as "exploitation" though. I know many of them support far stricter immigration laws. Seems pretty constructive to me.
Still, there is the fact that if the Right do win support in the polls, it is because they are the only ones willing to take the issue head on, whereas others seem interested in trying to pretend it doesn't exist. What are the current people in power trying to do to help the situation behind the scenes, while they try to keep it away from public eyes? Well, I suppose the Mayor of Cologne has suggested German women become educated on how to avoid these situations, because it's obviously their fault for making themselves fair game for these reprobates, right?
In Ireland, we have had our own terrorists and rapists to be worrying about for decades, and an attack by dissident republicans is more likely than an attack by ISIS here IMHO.
So what? How does the make it ok for imported terrorists and rapists? Also, what does what's happened in Ireland have to do with the rest of Europe? As for an attack on Irish soil by dissident Republicans to be more likely than ISIS, I can't see that as a realistic hypothetical situation at all.
Not it's not, it's about keeping calm in the face of adversity (prudence is a virtue, remember) and not resorting to knee-jerk reactions that will only serve to aggravate the situation. I'm not saying that people should not be angry, I'm saying that people need to channel their anger in a positive manner.
Knee-jerk reactions? This isn't something that just started yesterday. This kind of crap has been going on for a while now, hence why I say Europeans are sick of it. People have been angry about this for a while now, and have been ignored at best, or labeled x,y, and z at worst. If the current powers that be want to prevent such situations, then it is on them to start supporting their people and actually dealing with the criminals in their country.
You'd be surprised, people can and do develop extremist beliefs over time.
I am aware of that, but for someone to be convinced that rape and mass-murder are perfectly acceptable would suggest that they harbour something dark inside them already. You could also argue that the over-protection of certain groups with the excuse of political correctness has made certain elements within the groups arrogant, seeing that they can get away with Hell and so continue to push the boundaries.
remember that St. Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion.
After direct intervention from our Lord.
Again, you underestimate the power of social solidarity and identity.
Many communities of migrants across Europe have isolated themselves from the rest of the country. They have shown they are not interested in being part of a country with views they oppose. If somebody has a solution to a problem like that, then by all means I would be happy ot hear it; but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
But surely these are the exception, not the rule.
Yes, but that is not my point. My point is that even among families who have supposedly integrated, extremists can still emerge.
They may not be responsible, but they are using it to push their own agenda.
No doubt. The thing is though, an increasing number of Europeans don't care. If it's an agenda that will benefit them, what need do they have to oppose it?
Not excuses, distinctions between minorities as a whole and extremists
No Young Ireland. When ever someone comes out and says something against Islam or migrants, we are told they are the worst and most hateful people in the world. Whenever someone runs off to fight for ISIS or carry out a terrorist attack, we are told that we need to look at ourselves and how we in the West may have caused it, or how we need to try to "understand" the individual. I have seen so many people talk like this, and it is hypocritical excuse making.
not all extremists are from minorities btw, especially in a country with Ireland's history.
I didn't say they were. What does that have to do with the situation we are talking about now? Ireland's history bears no relevance on what is happening in Europe right now. I certainly don't see any right-wing extremists running around raping and murdering people in the numbers that people from the Islamic community are. Lone-wolves like Brevik perhaps, but that's not much compared to the scale of atrocities from the Islamic community, especially interesting when you consider the their size within the countries they live.
The same goes for all the far-right parties around Europe that Russia appears to be supporting.
Do you know for a fact that far-right parties will end up like the Kremlin, Young Ireland? I find your claims to be a bit of a stretch. Not that I think you're completely inaccurate. If any one power is in control too long, they will obviously get greedy and drunk on it. However, right now the Right are gaining support due to the smothering influence of Left wing powers in these countries. Just look at the disaster that is Sweden, the "Rape Capital of the World", which labels anyone that criticises government policies on immigration as being "far-right" and "neo-nazis", including centre-left parties. With such disgraceful behaviour, it was only natural that Europe would pendulum in the opposite direction. No doubt the Right could become a problem over time, but for now they are the solution for many people.
Again, I.S. WANT a backlash in the hope of radicalising the Muslim population further. Why would we want to play into their hands, unless we want violence to escalate.
I don't see any ordinary Europeans calling for the persecution of Muslims, Young Ireland. They want someone to do something about the ones committing crimes, and tighter border controls to protect them. If that alone is enough to set the Muslim population off, then that says a lot about the supposed moderates living in Europe.
Also, I partially agree with your point about ISIS, but not entirely. While radicalised Muslims would obviously be beneficial to them, I would argue that an indifferent Europe is much more useful. A Europe that carefully tip-toes around people's feelings at the expense of safety, due to political correctness, is an easy target for ISIS. People keep saying how if we all act happy and loving we will, ideologically, defeat ISIS. I imagine that ISIS are laughing their heads off at such a statement. ISIS will be defeated and Europe will be protected by tougher security measures, not by people trying to act like the problems aren't as bad as they are.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jan 10, 2016 21:36:55 GMT
If enough pressure is placed on the government, they will.I highly doubt that Young Ireland. Most likely people will be told it's too late due to the amount of time that has passed, as well as the size of the crowd involved. Evidence?
I already told you. The story wasn't reported on until Germans took to social media to get the story out. The police tried to play down the race of those involved. Which is what any reasonable person they do. A crime is a crime, regardless of skin colour or religion. One German official claimed that trying to draw a connection between the race of the people in the crowd, and the acts themselves, was not a good thing to do. I concur That's BS. It's not a coincidence. That's an appalling statement. You claim that you're not tarring people with the same brush, but this is what you are doing. No, I'm not saying all people who are Arabic or North African are like that You just did., but it is a problem among them. That's still not enough evidence to accuse the Government of covering it up.
Really Young Ireland? A horde of 1000-strong young men, sexually assaulting and attacking people in Cologne on New Year's Night, not a word of it mentioned on German news; and you think that's just an inconvenient accident? You can't seriously believe that Young Ireland. At least it's more charitable than accusing the German authorities of DELIBERATELY covering it up. In fact the only people exploiting the terrorist attacks here are the far-right, who seem to be more interested in gaining support in the polls than they are in actually doing something constructive to improve the situation.
Sort of like how the current people in power are only interested in covering up their disastrous mistakes so they can look good in the polls? Exactly. I don't see them exploiting anything at all Young Ireland. Feel free to tell me how raising awareness and protesting what's going on constitutes as "exploitation" though. By denouncing refugees en masse as invaders who deserve no mercy, that's what. I know many of them support far stricter immigration laws. Seems pretty constructive to me. Banning all Muslims from America a la Trump will only export the problem elsewhere. Also what do you propose to do with the Muslims that are already here? Deport them?Still, there is the fact that if the Right do win support in the polls, it is because they are the only ones willing to take the issue head on, whereas others seem interested in trying to pretend it doesn't exist. In other words, you believe they should be supported as the lesser of two evils.What are the current people in power trying to do to help the situation behind the scenes, while they try to keep it away from public eyes? Perhaps they are trying to bring the Muslims community along with them in order to limit the damage.Well, I suppose the Mayor of Cologne has suggested German women become educated on how to avoid these situations, because it's obviously their fault for making themselves fair game for these reprobates, right? It's not and I never said it was. That said, saying that people need to take precautions is not the same as victim blaming.In Ireland, we have had our own terrorists and rapists to be worrying about for decades, and an attack by dissident republicans is more likely than an attack by ISIS here IMHO.
So what? How does the make it ok for imported terrorists and rapists? Also, what does what's happened in Ireland have to do with the rest of Europe? As for an attack on Irish soil by dissident Republicans to be more likely than ISIS, I can't see that as a realistic hypothetical situation at all. With 2016 coming up, I'm sure the dissidents will want to make their presence felt. I never said that it was OK, I said that we know what it's like to have to deal with terrorism.Not it's not, it's about keeping calm in the face of adversity (prudence is a virtue, remember) and not resorting to knee-jerk reactions that will only serve to aggravate the situation. I'm not saying that people should not be angry, I'm saying that people need to channel their anger in a positive manner.
Knee-jerk reactions? This isn't something that just started yesterday. This kind of crap has been going on for a while now, hence why I say Europeans are sick of it. People have been angry about this for a while now, and have been ignored at best, or labeled x,y, and z at worst. If the current powers that be want to prevent such situations, then it is on them to start supporting their people and actually dealing with the criminals in their country. Yes, against all criminal, not just the Arab ones.You'd be surprised, people can and do develop extremist beliefs over time.
I am aware of that, but for someone to be convinced that rape and mass-murder are perfectly acceptable would suggest that they harbour something dark inside them already. You could also argue that the over-protection of certain groups with the excuse of political correctness has made certain elements within the groups arrogant, seeing that they can get away with Hell and so continue to push the boundaries. We all have something dark inside us: it's called concupisence. I would also add that if there is over-protection, it was justified for historical reasons that you know very well, I'm sure.remember that St. Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion.
After direct intervention from our Lord. Again, you underestimate the power of social solidarity and identity.
Many communities of migrants across Europe have isolated themselves from the rest of the country. They have shown they are not interested in being part of a country with views they oppose. If somebody has a solution to a problem like that, then by all means I would be happy ot hear it; but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Integration works both ways: it requires the host nation to accept the newcomers as equals.But surely these are the exception, not the rule.
Yes, but that is not my point. My point is that even among families who have supposedly integrated, extremists can still emerge. So what do you propose you do.They may not be responsible, but they are using it to push their own agenda.
No doubt. The thing is though, an increasing number of Europeans don't care. If it's an agenda that will benefit them, what need do they have to oppose it? Human decency, perhaps.Not excuses, distinctions between minorities as a whole and extremists
No Young Ireland. When ever someone comes out and says something against Islam or migrants, we are told they are the worst and most hateful people in the world. For good reason, in the latter case.Whenever someone runs off to fight for ISIS or carry out a terrorist attack, we are told that we need to look at ourselves and how we in the West may have caused it The West is partially, not completely responsible for what happened., or how we need to try to "understand" the individual. I have seen so many people talk like this, and it is hypocritical excuse making. not all extremists are from minorities btw, especially in a country with Ireland's history.
I didn't say they were. What does that have to do with the situation we are talking about now? Ireland's history bears no relevance on what is happening in Europe right now. I certainly don't see any right-wing extremists running around raping and murdering people in the numbers that people from the Islamic community are. Lone-wolves like Brevik perhaps, but that's not much compared to the scale of atrocities from the Islamic community, especially interesting when you consider the their size within the countries they live. I was not referring to the far-right here, I was referring to the various IRAs.The same goes for all the far-right parties around Europe that Russia appears to be supporting.
Do you know for a fact that far-right parties will end up like the Kremlin, Young Ireland? I find your claims to be a bit of a stretch. Not that I think you're completely inaccurate. If any one power is in control too long, they will obviously get greedy and drunk on it. However, right now the Right are gaining support due to the smothering influence of Left wing powers in these countries. So that makes it OK to go in the other direction.Just look at the disaster that is Sweden, the "Rape Capital of the World", which labels anyone that criticises government policies on immigration as being "far-right" and "neo-nazis", including centre-left parties. Bear in mind that some of the criticisms DO come from rather unsavoury quarters. With such disgraceful behaviour, it was only natural that Europe would pendulum in the opposite direction. No doubt the Right could become a problem over time, but for now they are the solution for many people. A Pyrrhic solution that will only make things worse.Again, I.S. WANT a backlash in the hope of radicalising the Muslim population further. Why would we want to play into their hands, unless we want violence to escalate.
I don't see any ordinary Europeans calling for the persecution of Muslims, Young Ireland. They want someone to do something about the ones committing crimes Not all of whom are Muslim, and tighter border controls to protect them. If that alone is enough to set the Muslim population off, then that says a lot about the supposed moderates living in Europe. Also, I partially agree with your point about ISIS, but not entirely. While radicalised Muslims would obviously be beneficial to them, I would argue that an indifferent Europe is much more useful. A Europe that carefully tip-toes around people's feelings at the expense of safety, due to political correctness, is an easy target for ISIS. People keep saying how if we all act happy and loving we will, ideologically, defeat ISIS. I imagine that ISIS are laughing their heads off at such a statement. ISIS will be defeated and Europe will be protected by tougher security measures, not by people trying to act like the problems aren't as bad as they are. Such an effect will only leave bitterness among the Muslims that are already settled here, if they have not already left, and will only lead to further unrest down the line.
Antaine, I think that your comments here, particularly the first paragraph, have lost me any respect I might have had for your position. If I was the moderator of this board, which fortunately for you I am not, you would be suspended right now. Again, angrily lashing out at scapegoats will not make things any better than they are now. If ISIS are to be defeated, we need to have the Muslims on side if we are not to end up with a bitter fifth column in the aftermath. Projecting the impression that they are not welcome here would be a massive propaganda victory for ISIS. We will have to make a choice: do we want to work together to crush IS or do we want to take our anger out on scapegoats, while the real terrorists continue their work undetected. Think carefully: if we get it wrong, the consequences could be painful...
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 10, 2016 22:08:53 GMT
Antaine, I would first of all draw your attention to a problematic statement in your first paragraph, where you refer to the "race" of the perpetrators of the recent criminal assaults in Cologne. I will take the charitable assumption that you do not mean that members of a particular ethnic group are genetically wired to commit such criminal acts, but I would like you to clarify this.
I understand your substantive point to be that certain cultures (which are not the same thing as race - that is a pseudo-biological term) predispose some of their members to commit such acts, and/or that the government is glossing over the ethnicity of the perpetrators because of excessive concern to avoid further racial unrest.
I will give a certain amount of leeway for comment on this board, but I will not tolerate explicit racism (which I assume is not what you intended - I assume you are being careless; for example, I take it you would include in your criticism those Islamic integristes who are converts of white/European descent). Please be more careful in your choice of words in future.
I have tried to stay out of this thread because Antaine and Young IReland are arguing on so many levels at once, but I may have to intervene if matters get out of hand.
My own view is that (a) Both Islam as a religion and Middle Eastern/Islamic culture are severely flawed, but (b) It is both immoral and counter-productive to scapegoat all Muslims/Arabs because of this. I would say I am closer to YOung IReland's position, but I want to make every allowance for Antaine to state and debate his views so long as he keeps within the limits of decency. Consider this a warning.
On one matter of fact - it is a matter of common knowledge that many European far-right parties are openly sympathetic to the Putin regime (on the basis of their own public statements) and that some have received assistance from it (the FN in France recently arranged an advantageous loan with Russian banks).
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Post by Ranger on Jan 11, 2016 11:45:59 GMT
I've kept out of a lot of this debate for a while as I've been trying to think things over and have had to reevaluate my positions on this. Before now my views on this would have closely resembled Young Ireland's but two key things have forced me to reconsider certain things (although I still agree with you on a number of points, YI).
First of all, the scale of immigration into Europe is going to be hugely problematic, both now and in the long-term future. One cannot accept in such a massive number (reports of immigration into Germany have gone from 500,000 to 1,000,000 this year alone over a very short space of time, and I've seen estimates that this number is only a small percentage of those in refugee camps waiting to come or en route already). Even allowing for errors and misreporting, there's still a huge influx into Europe of people who for the most part have radically different values than either the Christians or atheists/agnostics who make up the most part of European population. This has to necessarily have a long term impact on the shape of society, all the more so since one group (Muslim immigrants in Europe) is growing demographically and the other (European natives) is not. The social fabric of a given country can only take so much strain before it starts to break. Just look at the breakdown in the US political system on account of the polarisation between Red-state and Blue-state Americans, and that's in a culture where there are many similarities between the two that are slowly drifting apart.
Now, on the one hand, I don't particularly love 'Western culture' as it stands, but I think it's preferable to the emergence of a large-scale Islamic culture in Europe. I've spent time in Muslim countries before and I'm aware that we have many surprising similarities and that one can't possibly tar all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world with the same brush, but nonetheless we have to remember that we believe as Catholics that Islam is not a true religion, even if there are Muslims who seek truth and even if it contains elements of truth. Consequently a society founded on Islam is going to have what John Paul II referred to as a 'flawed anthropology' (he was referring to Marxism in that instance) and we can't turn a blind eye to these negatives just because European liberals mysteriously do (certain Islamic attitudes towards women in particular come to mind). Not all cultures are created equal. The High Middle Ages in Europe had its major problems, but I'd rather live there than in 1st Century BC Rome, for instance.
The second, more worrying thing is the response to this crisis from the broader Western culture, by which I mean mainstream media, political parties and twitterati. The fact that the slightest hesitancy or the mildest questions about unfettered immigration are treated as borderline racism in certain quarters is an incredibly unhealthy attitude (note well I don't think you fall into this in any way YI). This is exemplified in the near-refusal to report on the incidents in Cologne and elsewhere. I take it that you're familiar with the concept of the 'Overton Window,' that is the range of opinions that may be expressed in polite society without social repercussions? I think that this window is being forced closed by the aforementioned groupings on this issue (as it has been on others, like gay marriage) such that only far-left and left wing views are considered acceptable. Now, the effect that this has is to make centrist, centre-right and far-right criticisms are all equally placed outside the pale. I think that this makes it much, much easier for far-right groupings to recruit those in the middle who are frustrated if they're not too confident in their own views, and I think we can see this in the growth of the FN in France. If there was a space for socially acceptable mild criticisms of say Germany's immigration policies then it would undercut the far-right groups a great deal. In short, I think that the fact that so many very vocal people in positions of power seem to be racing to open the gates to immigration, in some cases I think as competitive virtue-signaling, and are denouncing anybody who disagrees with them, is driving the growth of the far right while simultaneously ignoring the problems of large-scale immigration. People are going to look at incidents like the ones in Cologne and say, 'the far-right are the only ones speaking the truth on this issue.' And democracy and enlightenment values are not the winners in such a situation.
All of that said, I can see the other side too. Large-scale, big-picture looks at societal changes can't overlook the personal, individual cases of people driven from their homes by wars and massive economic pressures. Each human being is made in God's image and likeness and we need to do what we can to help (although there's no obligation to do what we can't). As one character in the Mass Effect series once said, 'Spent too long looking at the big picture. Forgot that the big picture is made of little pictures.' And we can't forget that a huge amount of the problems driving these people to Europe, such as wars, economic crises, etc., were caused in large part by Western interference. I think what you said before about taking a number like 4,000 and saying 'we can help this many people, and integrate them into our society' is the best approach. But there needs to be space for open debate about it, otherwise the far right grows in the shadows.
As regards a ground war with ISIS... on a gut, emotional level I want to agree with you. But I don't know if such a war would satisfy all of the grounds for a just war, since one of those grounds is 'reasonable chances of victory.' Are there? Short of turning the Middle East into some sort of massive, militarised Euro-American client state without any freedoms whatsoever, I can't see it working. My view is that we need to convert, to bring the light of the Gospel to the Middle East somehow. ISIS seems to be recruiting largely from young, disaffected men who lack purpose, using a form of Islamic mentoring and spiritual direction to influence them.
The big problem here is that the Church is not doing its job, alas.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 11, 2016 14:03:43 GMT
The Overton Window is the subject of a song by my punk band The Head Wreckers: "I Chucked a Brick Through the Overton Window."
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Post by Young Ireland on Jan 11, 2016 17:50:09 GMT
I've kept out of a lot of this debate for a while as I've been trying to think things over and have had to reevaluate my positions on this. Before now my views on this would have closely resembled Young Ireland's but two key things have forced me to reconsider certain things (although I still agree with you on a number of points, YI). No problem, let the debate begin!First of all, the scale of immigration into Europe is going to be hugely problematic, both now and in the long-term future. One cannot accept in such a massive number (reports of immigration into Germany have gone from 500,000 to 1,000,000 this year alone over a very short space of time, and I've seen estimates that this number is only a small percentage of those in refugee camps waiting to come or en route already). Even allowing for errors and misreporting, there's still a huge influx into Europe of people who for the most part have radically different values than either the Christians or atheists/agnostics who make up the most part of European population. This has to necessarily have a long term impact on the shape of society, all the more so since one group (Muslim immigrants in Europe) is growing demographically and the other (European natives) is not. The social fabric of a given country can only take so much strain before it starts to break. Just look at the breakdown in the US political system on account of the polarisation between Red-state and Blue-state Americans, and that's in a culture where there are many similarities between the two that are slowly drifting apart. I'm not sure if it's the scale that's causing the problem, as opposed to certain countries (Germany, Sweden), due to the intransigence of countries like Hungary (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the Visregrad countries), being compelled to take in more refugees than they would otherwise take in. If every nation played its part (especially the Arab states, who need to be doing much more than they have been up to now), the numbers would be more manageable. As for the US, part of the problem there is that the Obama administration, in addition to being aggressively socially liberal, has by and large been incompetent in dealing with that country's social problems, not helped by their obsession with abortion and pseudogamy. Perhaps if Obama had shown more backbone over Syria instead of pushing his own agenda at home, this mess would be much smaller than it is now.Now, on the one hand, I don't particularly love 'Western culture' as it stands, but I think it's preferable to the emergence of a large-scale Islamic culture in Europe. I've spent time in Muslim countries before and I'm aware that we have many surprising similarities and that one can't possibly tar all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world with the same brush, but nonetheless we have to remember that we believe as Catholics that Islam is not a true religion, even if there are Muslims who seek truth and even if it contains elements of truth. Consequently a society founded on Islam is going to have what John Paul II referred to as a 'flawed anthropology' (he was referring to Marxism in that instance) and we can't turn a blind eye to these negatives just because European liberals mysteriously do (certain Islamic attitudes towards women in particular come to mind). Not all cultures are created equal. The High Middle Ages in Europe had its major problems, but I'd rather live there than in 1st Century BC Rome, for instance. I don't doubt for one minute that Islam is heavily flawed, and indeed part of my concern here is to limit the damage inflicted by its more radical forms. To do that, however, we need to bring the more moderate Muslims along with us, since they will have greater ability to influence younger Muslims than any of us. Treating all Muslims as potential terrorists (not referring to you Ranger, don't worry) will get us nowhere, and in fact will make combating IS even harder than it would be otherwise. Furthermore, I personally see the Muslims (though never the militants) as potential allies in areas like denominational schools, conscience rights and the family.The second, more worrying thing is the response to this crisis from the broader Western culture, by which I mean mainstream media, political parties and twitterati. The fact that the slightest hesitancy or the mildest questions about unfettered immigration are treated as borderline racism in certain quarters is an incredibly unhealthy attitude (note well I don't think you fall into this in any way YI). This is exemplified in the near-refusal to report on the incidents in Cologne and elsewhere. I take it that you're familiar with the concept of the 'Overton Window,' that is the range of opinions that may be expressed in polite society without social repercussions? I think that this window is being forced closed by the aforementioned groupings on this issue (as it has been on others, like gay marriage) such that only far-left and left wing views are considered acceptable. I'm not necessarily opposed to border or immigration controls per se, and I do agree that there is scope for legitimate debate on immigration within limits (e.g. how many refugees we should take in, but not that we should take none at all). Part of the problem I think is that many criticisms of immigration ARE coming from rather unsavoury quarters, and what angers me about Antaine's attitude is his obstinate refusal to accept that the crisis might be exploited by the far-right, or if it is, that's perfectly OK.
Now, the effect that this has is to make centrist, centre-right and far-right criticisms are all equally placed outside the pale. I think that this makes it much, much easier for far-right groupings to recruit those in the middle who are frustrated if they're not too confident in their own views, and I think we can see this in the growth of the FN in France. If there was a space for socially acceptable mild criticisms of say Germany's immigration policies then it would undercut the far-right groups a great deal. Very true. Still, just as water charges are no excuse to vote for the far-left, so concerns about immigration are no excuse to vote for the far-right. I am open to a reasoned debate on immigration policy though, as long that racist/xenophobic views are excluded, or firmly rebuked at least.In short, I think that the fact that so many very vocal people in positions of power seem to be racing to open the gates to immigration, in some cases I think as competitive virtue-signaling, and are denouncing anybody who disagrees with them, is driving the growth of the far right while simultaneously ignoring the problems of large-scale immigration. People are going to look at incidents like the ones in Cologne and say, 'the far-right are the only ones speaking the truth on this issue.' And democracy and enlightenment values are not the winners in such a situation. Can't disagree here, even if some of the reluctance of governments is understandable in the light of history.All of that said, I can see the other side too. Large-scale, big-picture looks at societal changes can't overlook the personal, individual cases of people driven from their homes by wars and massive economic pressures. Each human being is made in God's image and likeness and we need to do what we can to help (although there's no obligation to do what we can't). As one character in the Mass Effect series once said, 'Spent too long looking at the big picture. Forgot that the big picture is made of little pictures.' And we can't forget that a huge amount of the problems driving these people to Europe, such as wars, economic crises, etc., were caused in large part by Western interference. I think what you said before about taking a number like 4,000 and saying 'we can help this many people, and integrate them into our society' is the best approach. But there needs to be space for open debate about it, otherwise the far right grows in the shadows. Agreed, and everyone needs to play their part, not simply close the borders and leave others to pick up the pieces like Hungary.As regards a ground war with ISIS... on a gut, emotional level I want to agree with you. But I don't know if such a war would satisfy all of the grounds for a just war, since one of those grounds is 'reasonable chances of victory.' Are there? Short of turning the Middle East into some sort of massive, militarised Euro-American client state without any freedoms whatsoever, I can't see it working. My view is that we need to convert, to bring the light of the Gospel to the Middle East somehow. ISIS seems to be recruiting largely from young, disaffected men who lack purpose, using a form of Islamic mentoring and spiritual direction to influence them. The big problem here is that the Church is not doing its job, alas. I think such a war would be just with a UN mandate, a Syrian peace deal AND the backing of the majority of Arab world. Anything less, and I'd be inclined to agree that it would be unjust.
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Post by Ranger on Jan 12, 2016 11:58:15 GMT
I think I was not so much referring to the risk of terrorist threat when talking about the large scale of immigration so much as the inevitable cultural shift that will take place over the next 20/30/40 years on account of this. Europe will be slowly Islamified. For all of the problems in the West, I think that it's a better culture for us as Catholics to be living under as opposed to an Islamic one. As the demographics change, so to will the societies in which many of these immigrants are taking up residency. If the authorities decide to ignore this, then a percentage of those concerned about the cultural drift will inevitably drift towards the far right, fuelling further conflict. One cannot maintain a liberal Western democracy in a country where a sizeable minority that doesn't agree with values such as equality between the sexes, freedom of speech etc. is growing rapidly and the majority is slowly diminishing. There needs to be a limit placed on immigration so that the numbers coming in can be reasonably integrated into society. What we have now is going to leads to massive suburbs filled with what is essentially a different culture.
One other point I would make is that when it comes to radicalisation, I appreciate that many Muslims are moderate, but I doubt the effectiveness of moderate Imams to curb it. To many disaffected Muslim youth courted by the likes of ISIS, I imagine that such attempts would resemble the ACP trying to tell young orthodox Catholics to curb their enthusiasm and stop all this rosary and sacraments business. Who's going to listen?
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 12, 2016 12:35:17 GMT
I personally suspect that the attitude to ISIS and other terrorist groups amongst Muslims is much more similar to the attitude in Ireland towards the IRA during the Troubles than many like to admit. Was it true that the vast majority of Irish people were opposed to the IRA campaign? Yes. Was it as simple as that? No. There was a sliding scale of sympathy towards the Provos-- I was on the extreme end of 'cannot stand them and don't have any time for them'-- a lot of people in Ireland seemed to have a more ambiguous attitude.
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Post by Young Ireland on Jan 12, 2016 21:36:14 GMT
I think I was not so much referring to the risk of terrorist threat when talking about the large scale of immigration so much as the inevitable cultural shift that will take place over the next 20/30/40 years on account of this. Europe will be slowly Islamified. For all of the problems in the West, I think that it's a better culture for us as Catholics to be living under as opposed to an Islamic one. As the demographics change, so to will the societies in which many of these immigrants are taking up residency. If the authorities decide to ignore this, then a percentage of those concerned about the cultural drift will inevitably drift towards the far right, fuelling further conflict. One cannot maintain a liberal Western democracy in a country where a sizeable minority that doesn't agree with values such as equality between the sexes, freedom of speech etc. is growing rapidly and the majority is slowly diminishing. There needs to be a limit placed on immigration so that the numbers coming in can be reasonably integrated into society. What we have now is going to leads to massive suburbs filled with what is essentially a different culture. One other point I would make is that when it comes to radicalisation, I appreciate that many Muslims are moderate, but I doubt the effectiveness of moderate Imams to curb it. To many disaffected Muslim youth courted by the likes of ISIS, I imagine that such attempts would resemble the ACP trying to tell young orthodox Catholics to curb their enthusiasm and stop all this rosary and sacraments business. Who's going to listen? Ranger, I wouldn't necessarily agree that the current Western culture is better. Islamic sexual ethics are flawed in many ways, but they are much closer to Catholic teaching than what you would get in the West. Also, as I said, if the Visregrad (and Arab) countries (and Russia too, lest we forget) stopped dragging their feet on this, the impact on the rest of Europe will be lessened considerably, and this wouldn't be as much of an issue. We also need to be aware that although many concerns expressed are legitimiate, others appear to be motivated by racism and/or xenophobia, as can be seen from Anatine's last post. Not all concerns are likewise, but it's something we need to bear in mind. As for the ACP, I'm not sure if that analogy is entirely accurate: for one thing rosaries and the sacraments do not contradict Church teaching. A closer example might be an FSSP or ICRSS priest warning his flock of the dangers of developing a schismatic mentality and the importance of remaining with Peter. This is a tough one for me anyway, trying to keep a balance between the legitimate concerns from some quarters, and the need to welcome those fleeing persecution and worse. I certainly agree with you that part of the solution lies in Christian renewal and spreading the Good News to the Middle East. I personally suspect that the attitude to ISIS and other terrorist groups amongst Muslims is much more similar to the attitude in Ireland towards the IRA during the Troubles than many like to admit. Was it true that the vast majority of Irish people were opposed to the IRA campaign? Yes. Was it as simple as that? No. There was a sliding scale of sympathy towards the Provos-- I was on the extreme end of 'cannot stand them and don't have any time for them'-- a lot of people in Ireland seemed to have a more ambiguous attitude. Very true, Maolscheachlann. I can't add much more to that, only to say that I agree with you there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 22:22:34 GMT
O, it sure got busy while I was away. It may take me some time to catch up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 23:18:42 GMT
Which is what any reasonable person they do. A crime is a crime, regardless of skin colour or religion.
No Young Ireland, that is completely dishonest. You are basically saying that the race of those involved has no relevance, which is a lie. If the vast majority of the people committing the crimes were of a particular group, then it is important to make a not of that as it may have relevance to why the crimes are being committed.
That's an appalling statement. You claim that you're not tarring people with the same brush, but this is what you are doing.
No, I'm pointing out the blinding obvious that the vast majority of people committing the crimes belonged to a certain group of people. The fact of the matter is that these particular Arabs/North Africans don't have any respect for the countries they are in, hence why they are committing those criminal acts. That is an important detail, whether you like it or not, and trying to call "Racism!" about it is becoming a tired excuse.
You just did.
No, you're being dishonest again. I said that it is a problem exclusive to their group. Unless you would like to point me to the hordes of young German men who were hanging around New Year's Night sexually assaulting and robbing young women.
At least it's more charitable than accusing the German authorities of DELIBERATELY covering it up.
Charitable? Oh for goodness sake Young Ireland. They went crazy at one officer who claimed the people involved were migrants.
By denouncing refugees en masse as invaders who deserve no mercy, that's what.
Considering the contempt they have shown to the people of European countries, I don't think invader is an entirely unsuitable word. Don't know where you're getting "no mercy" from Young Ireland. A bit dramatic, no?
Banning all Muslims from America a la Trump will only export the problem elsewhere
Well, that is kind of the point of a government. You're supposed to look after your own people first. Otherwise what are you good for? Join a charity if you want to look after everyone else.
Also what do you propose to do with the Muslims that are already here? Deport them?
No
In other words, you believe they should be supported as the lesser of two evils.
Pretty much.
Perhaps they are trying to bring the Muslims community along with them in order to limit the damage.
O? I wonder how they're doing that, because to most people it seems like they're giving migrants special protection.
That said, saying that people need to take precautions is not the same as victim blaming.
The fact that they need to take precautions at all is the problem. Being told not to wear short clothes incase you "offend" migrants, being told to cross the road if you see one on the same side of the road as you, etc. I think we know who's really being accommodated here.
Yes, against all criminal, not just the Arab ones.
If the Arab ones hadn't made such a notorious reputation for themselves, there wouldn't be a need to focus on them.
I would also add that if there is over-protection, it was justified for historical reasons that you know very well, I'm sure.
So what may have happened after 9/11, for example, is excuse enough to cover for travesties coming from migrant groups?
Integration works both ways: it requires the host nation to accept the newcomers as equals.
Considering they have entire towns considered no-go areas for people outside there group, it seems they have been accommodated well. Yes, it goes both ways indeed.
So what do you propose you do.
I'll be damned if I know. Someone supposedly integrates into your country, and they still have a chance of going radical? You can't really do much more for them. Bending over backwards for them isn't an option.
Human decency, perhaps.
Yes, just accept the hordes of young men who hold Europe and Europeans with utter contempt, and see them as fair game for their vild crimes; wouldn't want to be called racist. Human decency indeed.
For good reason, in the latter case.
Yes,of course. As long as you're not called racist, even if migrants are running rampant, that's the better option. Just stay quiet about it.
The West is partially, not completely responsible for what happened.
Yes, I'm aware. They invaded countries with no good reason, then ridiculously jumped on the Arab Spring without considering the consequences. However, we are well aware of the vile acts that ISIS carry out. I will not make excuses for people who join them. Especially people who are supposed to be nationals of European Western countries.
So that makes it OK to go in the other direction.
Actually, yes. I think it's only natural that the balance is being restored now. However, unlike you (or what I'm assuming you think), I don't expect a right-wing totalitarian government and dictator to rise from the ashes.
A Pyrrhic solution that will only make things worse.
I don't imagine things can get much worse for Europe if it doesn't change its direction now. Do you not feel that at this rate Europe will be overrun my groups that hate it? Don't try to pass it off as a right-wing conspiracy Young Ireland. We can see the results in many places already.
Not all of whom are Muslim
Then they can't say they're being singled out, can they? Nobody is going to catch a criminal migrant, say "Oh wait, he's not Muslim", and then just let him go.
Such an effect will only leave bitterness among the Muslims that are already settled here, if they have not already left, and will only lead to further unrest down the line.
Do you not see a contradiction in saying that there are good Muslims here, and we need to keep them on our side, but then saying if they become in anyway irate they are at risk of joining ISIS? I know what you said already about people having a darkside, but I find that a shaky argument.
Antaine, I think that your comments here, particularly the first paragraph, have lost me any respect I might have had for your position.
If stating an observation has lost me your respect, I probably didn't have much of it to begin with.
If I was the moderator of this board, which fortunately for you I am not, you would be suspended right now.
For making arguments that annoy you? Fortunate indeed.
Again, angrily lashing out at scapegoats will not make things any better than they are now.
Scapegoats? No Young Ireland, there have been a lot of problems following migrants. That's a fact. Having said that, you didn't seem to see anything wrong with migrants attacking Hungarian police, and even went so far as to defend them, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
If ISIS are to be defeated, we need to have the Muslims on side if we are not to end up with a bitter fifth column in the aftermath.
Yes, having moderate Muslims on our side would be a good thing. However, giving special treatment to Muslims, or playing down the religion or ethnicity of the groups should not be part of the deal. It's not racist to make these observations Young ireland. No matter how hard you want to believe that, it isn't. I'm sure Rotherdam Council had the same train of thought as you though, if that makes you feel any better.
Projecting the impression that they are not welcome here would be a massive propaganda victory for ISIS.
Again, considering the chaos and trouble that has followed so many migrants, they are not welcome by a lot of people.
We will have to make a choice: do we want to work together to crush IS or do we want to take our anger out on scapegoats, while the real terrorists continue their work undetected. Think carefully: if we get it wrong, the consequences could be painful...
ISIS is merely one battle Young Ireland. There is no reason we can't deal with ISIS in Iraq/Syria, ISIS sympathisers here, and non-terrorist criminals. You can try to play down the seriousness of the issues surrounding the migrants by referring to them as "scapegoats", but it's not working anymore Young Ireland. This is a problem that is currently exclusive to the Islamic community. While that doesn't mean all Muslims are in on it, or that they should be treated as such, it does not give you the right to pretend like it isn't an important factor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 23:32:08 GMT
This is to Hibernicus:
I will take the charitable assumption that you do not mean that members of a particular ethnic group are genetically wired to commit such criminal acts, but I would like you to clarify this.
"No, I'm not saying all people who are Arabic or North African are like that, but it is a problem among them."
In case I wasn't clear enough, what I'm saying is that we do not see people of other ethnicities doing these things on the scale that these men were. I am not saying all Arabic or North African men do these things, but I am saying that it is a problem among their particular group.
I understand your substantive point to be that certain cultures (which are not the same thing as race - that is a pseudo-biological term) predispose some of their members to commit such acts, and/or that the government is glossing over the ethnicity of the perpetrators because of excessive concern to avoid further racial unrest.
In that case I apologise Hibernicus. I did not mean to suggest that by their nature these men behave like this, rather that the cultures of which they make up the majority have poor attitudes to women (especially Western women) which leads to this behaviour.
I take it you would include in your criticism those Islamic integristes who are converts of white/European descent
Yes Hibernicus. It's just that in this case the men involved were migrants, hence why their race was mentioned. If you take out the fact the majority were migrants, you are left with a whole different story. For e.g.:
"1000s of men sexually assault women" It just sounds like a gang of men in Germany went completely mad and decided to start preying on women.
"1000s of migrant men sexually assault women" It adds a whole different dimension to the story, and important one at that whether people want to believe it or not.
I have tried to stay out of this thread because Antaine and Young IReland are arguing on so many levels at once, but I may have to intervene if matters get out of hand.
Feel free to ban me if you see it as the best option Hibernicus. I don't think this argument is really going anywhere anyway. So, if Young Ireland wants to claim victory after this, he may feel free to do so.
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Post by maolsheachlann on Jan 12, 2016 23:57:15 GMT
Antaine obviously did not mean his remarks in a racist way-- the context makes it clear. But if a racist DID come to post here, why shouldn't they be allowed to air their views-- with which I would disagree? 'Race' is a notoriously vague term-- some have even called it a meaningless term. People refer to the 'Irish race' all the time.
All day I'd looked in the face What I had hoped 'twould be To write for my own race And the reality...
(W.B. Yeats, the Fisherman.)
"To forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race". (James Joyce).
Let's not complain about the forum being sluggish and then talk about suspensions and warnings when there is strident debate.
And for what it's worth, I also incline more towards Young Ireland's views-- but with a certain sympathy for Antaine's.
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