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Post by hythlodaye on Jan 24, 2010 21:58:20 GMT
I recall that using much the same technique, Ronald Knox proved that the works of Trollope were in fact written by Queen Victoria. I'll try to get more details, and if I succeed, I'll post them.
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Post by hibernicus on Jan 25, 2010 12:04:55 GMT
It's in Knox's ESSAYS IN SATIRE - I read it years ago. It actually argues that Tennyson's IN MEMORIAM was written by Queen Victoria as a lament for Prince Albert. Knox's point, I think (it's years since I read it) is that this is an argument which is internally consistent and plausible on its own terms, but that those terms are ridiculous to someone who is aware of the culture and people involved. I am not altogether sure if he was primarily satirising Biblical criticism in that one - if I remember correctly, it turned on the supposed discovery in the poem of anagrams containing cryptic disclosures of the real authorship. I think he was satirising the claim made by some people at the time that the plays of Shakespeare contain cryptograms showing they were really written by Francis Bacon. (His family shared a passion for such matters; one of his brothers was a codebreaker at Bletchley.) Knox does have a piece in the same volume which satirises Biblical criticism by applying its terminology to the authorship of the Sherlock Holmes stories, but I think this is primarily a spoof rather than a serious argument. (JBS Haldane, a well-known scientist and atheist, responded with another parody declaring himself a Fundamentalist who believed, any internal evidence to the contrary, that the events of the stories happened in the order they were writtne and published!)
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 9, 2010 15:48:33 GMT
Here's an interesting example of the perils of some forms of historical criticism. The science-fiction writer John C Wright discusses a review of one of his fantasy stories in which the critic, knowing that Wright is a convert to Catholicism, denounces the story as Catholic propaganda - not realising that the story's publication had been delayed and it was written some years previously, when Wright was an atheist... Shows the danger of definite conclusions about a writer when you don't know all the facts. (I am not saying such hypotheses ought not to be put forward - it's necessary to do so - I'm saying that they must always be recognsed as provisional.) johncwright.livejournal.com/319498.html
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 12, 2010 12:48:04 GMT
Earlier this week one of the daily Scripture passages at Mass was the story of Elisha and Naaman the Syrian whom he cured of leprosy bible.oremus.org/?passage=2+kings+5-5&version=nrsvae An interesting point about this is that here for once in the relevant period we see Israel as it appeared from outside - a small kingdom at the mercy of others (the raid in which Naaman's slave-girl was captured, the king of Israel's alarm at the possibility that the demand to cure Naaman has been thought op as pretext for a quarrel - evidently the Syrian king is so much more powerful that the result of a war would be a foregone conclusion). Visitors to the Holy Land are often struck by the fact that the Jordan is just a small stream; the original readers of this text would know that the rivers of Damascus are mighty indeed, in fact Damascus grew up because it was the first large watering-place to be encountered after crossing the desert from the Fertile Crescent, and hence became a centre of trade. Yet here s elsewhere God passes over the strong and makes use of the weak to do His will. There is never a shortage of Gehazis, even among those who proclaim the Word of God.
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Post by Inedifix on Mar 12, 2010 20:06:09 GMT
Does anyone here know when the concept of 'Heaven' is first mentioned in the Bible? I don't mean "the heavens" as in the skies above, I mean the concept of heaven being an eternal life after death in god's presence as attainable goal for the righteous.
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Post by Beinidict Ó Niaidh on Mar 15, 2010 9:50:48 GMT
Does anyone here know when the concept of 'Heaven' is first mentioned in the Bible? I don't mean "the heavens" as in the skies above, I mean the concept of heaven being an eternal life after death in god's presence as attainable goal for the righteous. At a guess, I'd say the Books of Maccabees, which don't appear as canonical scripture in the Protestant Bible, but which appear in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles. There might be something hinted at in Tobit (Tobias in Douay-Rheims). On the other hand in Quoheleth (Ecclesiastes - which famously supplies the lyrics for the Byrds' hit 'Turn, Turn'), one can read an implicit disbelief in the afterlife - but it doesn't state it openly. It might be that the concept of the afterlife just doesn't register with author, who is traditionally supposed to be King Solomon.
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Post by Harris on Mar 15, 2010 10:54:07 GMT
My understanding is that some theological scholars theorise that there are three seperate heavens mentioned in the text of the bible.
1. the aerial, 2. the sidereal, and 3. the celestial.
First there is the atmospheric or aerial heavens where the birds fly. This is visible to the naked eye and is mentioned by Jeremiah where he said: “The birds of the heavens have fled” (Jeremiah 4:25).
Next, there are the stellar or sidereal heavens from which shine the stars and constellations. Isaiah speaks of the Day of the Lord when “the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light” (Isaiah 13:10).
Finally, there is the third Heaven, the celestial or “the Heaven of heavens” (2 Chronicles 6:18). “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are figures of the true; but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us” (Hebrews 9:24). Jesus said “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven” (Matthew 5:16).
For Christians, the third option (the celestial heaven) is the one usually referred to when talking about the afterlife.
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 15, 2010 17:55:33 GMT
Here is Wikipedia's entry on "Sheol" for what it's worth. There seems to be some dispute about whether "Sheol" refers to a state of non-existence or to a shadowy afterlife (as among the Homeric Greeks, where the 'real' man is what exists in this life and the posthumous existence is only a shadow, so that even the greatest hero would sooner be a poor man's slave - the most degraded existence imaginable - than a king among the voiceless dead). This entry suggests that the idea of rescue from Sheol can be found in Isaiah and some of te Psalms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
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Post by Inedifix on Mar 15, 2010 19:34:08 GMT
But when does the Bible first make an overt mention that those who are faithful to God will have eternal life with him in heaven?
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Post by Harris on Mar 16, 2010 14:11:16 GMT
The bible says very little about eternal life in heaven. I cannot find an instance where the bible states that those who are faithful to God will have eternal life with him in heaven.
Perhaps this developed through Church Tradition similar to stories dealing with the Assumption of Mary and St Peter going to Rome?
A lot of these traditions came along much later after the gospels had been written down and were first reported by church fathers such as Tertullian and Origen around the years 175-200 AD, probably 150 years after Peter and Marys actual death..
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Post by laffingtiger on Mar 17, 2010 10:37:47 GMT
When you you talk about the death of Peter and Mary are you refering to a historical event or a narrative death. It seems surprizing to me that Peter and Mary can be thought of as historical figures when there is no evidence for their existence other than in the narrative form i.e. as characters in a play. For that matter there is no evidence for a historical Moses or even Jesus himself even though contempories like Herod and John the Baptiser have a historical bases?
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 18, 2010 11:54:29 GMT
Harris: Let's start with St. Paul - I think we can agree the Pauline documents are the earliest writings in the New Testament: Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thes 4:17-18). Try John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. Here's an exposition by Pope John Paul II on Heaven, which has a handy list of Biblical references www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTMThe Apocalypse of St. John is a description of heaven, and where Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes." Sorry, Harris. Somebody who thinks there are no New Testament references to Heaven is not worth taking seriously, and certainly is not a Catholic. I am not banning you because you aren't a Catholic; I am banning you because you set up here under false pretences. Goodbye.
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Post by Harris on Mar 19, 2010 10:00:57 GMT
Harris: Let's start with St. Paul - I think we can agree the Pauline documents are the earliest writings in the New Testament: Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thes 4:17-18). Try John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. Here's an exposition by Pope John Paul II on Heaven, which has a handy list of Biblical references www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTMThe Apocalypse of St. John is a description of heaven, and where Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes." Sorry, Harris. Somebody who thinks there are no New Testament references to Heaven is not worth taking seriously, and certainly is not a Catholic. I am not banning you because you aren't a Catholic; I am banning you because you set up here under false pretences. Goodbye. Hib. I think this is a bit of an over reaction. I didn’t say there was no heaven at all. I was answering Inedifixs comment directly and stating that I could not find an instance where the bible states that those who are faithful to God will have eternal life with him in heaven. The contributions you made above DO refer to heaven but not that if one is faithful to God they will find heaven. I feel you have grossly misrepresented what I was trying to convey here. You stated "Somebody who thinks there are no New Testament references to Heaven....."Why on earth would you make this entirely untrue statement? I never stated this at all and frankly shame on you for claiming I did. Its dishonest and downright unfair. My references to church tradition is totally valid. I DO NOT claim that heaven was invented by church tradition. Merely that its a possibility that the concept of those who are faithful to God will have eternal life with him in heaven may have came about AFTER the gospels were written down as part of church tradition. This concept is inferred in the bible but not actually explictly stated. Ban me if you will, but I think I am being perfectly reasonable and honest in what I say. Can you state the same?
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Post by hibernicus on Mar 19, 2010 11:59:29 GMT
Yes, indeed - I am being perfectly reasonable and honest, so far as I can tell. The fact is, Harris, that your statement is perfectly incomprehensible unless by "Bible" you mean "Old Testament". If so, you are careless, to put it mildly. I notice that you do not refer to any of the New Testament texts I cited. Here are a few more:- Luke 23: 43 [Jesus and the good thief on the cross] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Apocalypse 3;21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. I decided to ban you because (a) While the definition of "Catholic" is pretty inexact among liberal Catholics these days, someone who dismisses church tradition and the development of doctrine through theological analysis as you do falls outside it (b) The New Testament references to Jesus promising that the faithful will live with Him in Heaven are quite unequivocal. We are not talking about Arianism or Adoptionism, where it is possible for someone to find these views in the text by reading it on a sola scriptura basis. Somebody who says the New Testament does not refer to an afterlife in heaven is either recklessly careless or obfuscating; in either case there is no reason why he should be allowed to clutter up the board and distract us from real debate.
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Post by Harris on Mar 19, 2010 12:22:07 GMT
Well what can I say? I disagree with you that the texts you provide prove that those who are faithful to God will have eternal life with him in heaven.
You state that: "The New Testament references to Jesus promising that the faithful will live with Him in Heaven are quite unequivocal". I agree. What you are saying here is my opinion also so do not attempt to paint me with an opinion I didn’t espouse.
You also state: "Somebody who says the New Testament does not refer to an afterlife in heaven...." I DID NOT say this. You are either misunderstanding what I said or blatently misrepresenting what I actually said.
However, it is still my opinion that the concept that those who are faithful to God will have eternal life with him in heaven is inferred in the bible but not actually explicitly stated in the text.
I'll repeat the phrase faithful to God. Where is it explicitly stated?
You also state "someone who dismisses church tradition and the development of doctrine..." Where on earth are you getting this chestnut from?
Where did I dismiss church tradition? I merely stated the ACCEPTED FACTS that there is no reference to Marys Assumption and other similar stories in the text of the bible.
These facts became known later and were given to the faithful by early church fathers. This is a fact. It doesnt mean I reject church tradition as you claim. This is once again the height of dishonesty on your part.
Its easy to ban someone when you claim they said things they didnt and thus paint them in a far worse light than they actually are in.
I have to question your motives here Hib. You seem to have a habit of banning people who appear to be your intellectual equals and entertain others (whom I won’t name) who are reluctant to engage in debate with you once you post a few complicated long words.
It’s not an admirable trait.
If you still feel the need to ban me, well you are the boss and I accept it. I would just ask that you do not delete my posts as I feel I have contributed to the site in many positive ways and I would like others to be able to see my side of the story and judge both my character and yours for themselves in this very revealing exchange.
I'll leave you with this quote: "THE MEASURE OF A MAN IS WHAT HE DOES WITH POWER." Plato
Consult your conscience Sir. God bless.......
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